ABS the question

[Gremlin]

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

Don't think you've actually read enough then, or you've missed out the part where it requires a very specific set of parameters to achieve that.

In testing, in ideal conditions (road surface, tyres, rider, bike etc) with a skilled rider on board (read good racer) yes, a bike without ABS can stop faster than an ABS bike of the same model. It's not completely consistent however, sometimes the ABS winning. Once your conditions change, road surface gets worse for example, then the ABS equipped bike starts consistently beating the non ABS bike. In short, taking into account all conditions and variables, an ABS bike has better odds of stopping quicker. The caveat with this, is that we're talking road riding, and not adventure/off road riding.

I see your argument about having monkeys for drivers relying on all the aids, and the point has been proven before, but where do you draw the line? No traction control, air conditioning, power steering, ABS etc? Air bags? Make seats worse? It's a bit ridiculous...

The poll could only be used for opinion, as the facts are clear that ABS does help. So... when do we have a thread about traction control? It's probably saved my bacon a couple of times...

[veldthui]

It is a very good way to reduce insurance costs. I have used ABS in my car numerous times and it works well. Never yet had it activate on my bike. Certainly means that although my current bike is 400cc more than my 800 the insurance cost remained the same even though the insured ammount went way up.

[Katman]

Once your conditions change, road surface gets worse for example, then the ABS equipped bike starts consistently beating the non ABS bike. In short, taking into account all conditions and variables, an ABS bike has better odds of stopping quicker.

All it's doing is removing the rider's need to be able to sense when their wheel is about to lock up.

[willytheekid]

To ABS....or not to ABS...that is the question!...I think?

Soooo, After some in-depth study and lots! of research....my findings are thus:

...standard brakes seem to work best on corgies! ....


As for bikes??-(sorry I got side tracked during research)
...fuck knows! (down to personal choice & skill set I spose)

But Ive tried ABS bikes...meh!...is ok...but I find it takes the "fun" out of the arse clinching moments ...prefer to rely on myself instead of a computer.
Besides...I always seem to stop in time during an emergency with standard brakes...but it "may" have something to do with "how" I clentch my arse??

...i will do some more "research" and get back to ya (must borrow Nodrogs arse clinch meter..."hay Nodrog!!!...")



ABS or not...Ride safe over the holiday period KBers

[tbs]

Really Ed? As I've already said, I've ridden many bikes with ABS.

I'm curious about motorcycle ABS and I have a couple of questions based on my experience with cars.

Several years ago I did a BMW driver training day at Puke. Obviously there was plenty of time spent fanging it around the track, but we also did a bunch of braking drills, including braking and turning at the same time. The point being that we actually had to learn to trust the ABS. In a Beemer, when the ABS activates the brake pedal kicks back against your foot quite forcefully, with a surprisingly slow pulsation rate. The instructors told us that everyone instinctively lifts off when this happens, so the first drill was to keep our foot buried when the pedal started to kick. He confidently told us that no-one ever stopped inside the cones on their first attempt, so I made damn sure I did. Then we did evasive maneuver drills braking while turning around obstacles. Interestingly, most of my concentration was still on fighting the instinct to lift off the brake, but it worked. The car could still turn no matter how hard I was braking.
Later in the day we did a timed slalom. Through some cones, do a U-turn and back through the cones to a full stop. On my final run I decided to use my newly found skills to haul the car up and make the u-turn, but actually it didn't work, and I lost considerable time with the car just skidding forwards. I guess full lock ABS has it's limitations.

That night I experimented with the ABS in my Toyota, and while the pedal pulsated, it did so at high frequency and didn't make me want to lift off. Since then I have felt it come on a few times in the wet, often when one wheel crosses a drain cover.

Questions:

Do motorbike brake levers pulsate when the ABS comes on? Could this actually increase you stopping distance if the rider has to fight the instinct to lift off?

Can motorbike ABS work effectively at lean? I recall reading the the Aprilia RSV4 Factory came without it as they hadn't developed it sufficiently for track use.

Could relying on it while at lean cause the front wheel to lock just long enough to initiate a sideways slide that puts you down?

[Gremlin]

All it's doing is removing the rider's need to be able to sense when their wheel is about to lock up.

Ok, lets play Devil's Advocate a bit. A human brain can concentrate on a finite number of things at once. In an emergency situation, arguably, the less the brain has to concentrate on, the better it will perform. It could therefore be argued that not worrying about wheel traction leaves you more time to assess the situation, find an out, concentrate on keeping the bike upright etc.

How many riders are sensing when their motorcycle is about to sieze and cover the clutch? While an issue on 2 strokes, it's so rare in modern bikes, most wouldn't have a clue. I certainly don't think about the engine siezing...

Questions:

Do motorbike brake levers pulsate when the ABS comes on? Could this actually increase you stopping distance if the rider has to fight the instinct to lift off?

Can motorbike ABS work effectively at lean? I recall reading the the Aprilia RSV4 Factory came without it as they hadn't developed it sufficiently for track use.

Could relying on it while at lean cause the front wheel to lock just long enough to initiate a sideways slide that puts you down?

On my BMW R1200 GS Adventure the levers certainly do pulsate under your fingers and foot. Can't comment about others. I guess it depends on the rider. I would hazzard a guess that riders are hopefully a little more clued up about bike operation than your average driver (coz there's simply heaps of them that are clueless). I have certainly seen the question asked though, why does my brake lever pulse, what's wrong...

Can't answer on lean questions, 1, I'm not keen to scrape up my bike any more than it is already, and 2, it's also probably a variable question, depending on the amount of lean. Due to contact patch, if there is a loss of traction (especially leant over) it's hard to re-gain that traction as the tyre is already in a sliding motion. Any recovery of grip also raises the additional risk of the bike falling over it's axis due to the tyres gripping (ie, high sides). With small amounts of lean I would say it's very beneficial, but higher amounts, no idea...

[Katman]

Ok, lets play Devil's Advocate a bit. A human brain can concentrate on a finite number of things at once. In an emergency situation, arguably, the less the brain has to concentrate on, the better it will perform. It could therefore be argued that not worrying about wheel traction leaves you more time to assess the situation, find an out, concentrate on keeping the bike upright etc.

In the past I've had instances of using a locked rear wheel, sliding out to the side, to enable me to steer around an obstacle in an emergency situation.

Good luck trying that one with ABS.

[Big Dave]

I also think it's a good idea if you are riding with it for the first time to go and find a suitable empty carpark and sensibly work up to engaging the system - mainly so if it does kick in in an emergency your first thought isn't WTF!

Because the systems and the type of feedback they give vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Better to be concentrating on what's going on than the weird feeling brake lever.

[Mr. Peanut]

Yep. That was my initial reaction when the concept first appeared on bikes. Doan need no steenkin' etc etc.

Remember that scene where Fonzie has to admit he was wrrrr.....wro.......wrrrrrr.....may not have been right.

Experience with a number of test bikes since has convinced me to go with the backup. 's all it is - backup.

Like I said earlier - depending on vehicle too.

I have to admit, my cerebellar ABS (tm) is somewhat slower in operation due to the intrinsic lag in action potentials running through the nerve axons of my right hand, and having the wheel tuck for 300ms rather than 20ms is probably less than optimal.

If I was carrying a pillion regularly on a heavy sports tourer, I would use it without question.

[onearmedbandit]

People seem to think that ABS gives them special powers.

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

It's just that one of them could be stopped by a monkey in that distance.

That's the truth. Although I'm keen to see someone argue it.

[Maha]

In the past I've had instances of using a locked rear wheel, sliding out to the side, to enable me to steer around an obstacle in an emergency situation.

Good luck trying that one with ABS.

Luxury... I had a locked rear wheel, sliding front end, a seagull attacking me from above, sunstrike, a Kenworth jumping out from now where, two horses without riders, a hang glider swooping in from my right and a young girl delivering pamphlets...all this just getting out of the driveway...ABS eat shit!....it was all skill level.

[Usarka]

Do a skid bro!

[Ocean1]

The reality is that two identical bikes, one with ABS and one without, can actually stop in exactly the same distance.

So you're one of the elite pro racers that could stop in less distance with ABS turned off eh?

Tests reports I've seen suggested it took you several attempts, though, eh?

And your average was still longer than a mere amateure with ABS on, innit?

[jim.cox]

I do not want ABS

I want the brakes to work when I tell them to

Having some machine decide that I dont really mean it is about as good as having Micro$oft guess my words as I type

I also happend to like spinning and sliding my wheels, and since all my vehicles are old klunkers I worry about the long term maintenance of such systems

I will concede that ABS probably does do a better job of braking than I can - but I still dont want it

[Katman]

So you're one of the elite pro racers that could stop in less distance with ABS turned off eh?

If you say so.