Counterleaning in slow speed maneuvers

**Grashopper** · 14th March 2013, 13:11

For the record I'm not talking about countersteering here, but counterleaning, where you stabilise the bike in slow speed maneuvers like u-turns by sitting upright or leaning slightly opposite the way the bike does.

So, I stumbled across these articles about police motorcycle training which are quite an interesting read:
http://stevelarsen.net/pdfs/PHX%20Po...iningPart1.pdf

But on page 3 when he describes what they did on Day 3 of the training course he is saying that counterleaning is a bad habit and I'm pretty sure he is still talking about slow speed maneuvering.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

**bogan** · 14th March 2013, 13:15

The most tech reason is that counter-leaning will use the steering rake to decrease the turning radius. The other part of it is about controllability, which is going to change from person to person or bike to bike, I've always found you get more control being on top though...

**Banditbandit** · 14th March 2013, 13:17

Yeah .. I couldn't open the linked file .. but counter-leaning does work .. even at high speed .. you just lean out instead of leaning in ..

At low speed it means that the bike is leant over and turning faster ... because

Originally Posted by bogan

The most tech reason is that counter-leaning will use the steering rake to decrease the turning radius.

I'm not that technical .. I just use it ..

A centre line drawn through the weight of the bike plus the rider is more upright ... same at high speed .. but much harder and more dangerous at high speed ...

Try it .. it works .. (at low speed at least try it ...)

**Grashopper** · 14th March 2013, 13:29

I know that it works. I've been using it to get smoother, more controlled u-turns (ok, I have to admit it's a work in progress...

). But if they are saying that it is a "bad habit" then I'm thinking maybe I'm doing something wrong, or at least could improve my technique by not doing it and do something different instead, whatever that may be.

**Maha** · 14th March 2013, 14:04

Originally Posted by Grashopper

I know that it works. I've been using it to get smoother, more controlled u-turns (ok, I have to admit it's a work in progress...

). But if they are saying that it is a "bad habit" then I'm thinking maybe I'm doing something wrong, or at least could improve my technique by not doing it and do something different instead, whatever that may be.

If the technique works for you, then use it...
There will always be those for and those against any skill based method, proven or otherwise.

**bluninja** · 14th March 2013, 14:22

Leaning away from your bike is a great way to get rid of chicken strips without going too fast

I think on roads the reason for not leaning the opposite way to your bike is that your bike leans further for a given speed and can run out of tyre edge. As for not doing it at speed...have you seen speedway riders hanging off the inside of thier bikes with knee down?

**nerrrd** · 14th March 2013, 14:24

Pretty sure this technique was recommended for doing tight radius slow speed turns on the courses I've done, so can't be all "bad".

**Grashopper** · 14th March 2013, 14:44

Originally Posted by bluninja

As for not doing it at speed...have you seen speedway riders hanging off the inside of thier bikes with knee down?

Hm no, I had to google it. But it looks like they still lean in the same direction than the bike, don't they? (while they break all laws of physics

)

**Akzle** · 14th March 2013, 14:46

i always used to do this. being a farm ladd. i was told off for doing it on a sportsbike and "trying to drift it"

i believe the advice i got on here (a fucking rarity eh?) for high speed/normal road riding was that your body should not to the outside of the bike's centreline...

having seen many lulz high-sides, i can see teh logic.

that said, i probably have so many bad habits it's just not worth worrying about.

Sent while picking my nose. with my little toe.

**Ocean1** · 14th March 2013, 15:14

There's a speed under which bikes handle differently. Higher speeds at which normal counter-steering produces obvious and appropriate steering reactions, lower speeds where if you try a healthy counter-steer input the bike seems to actually go in the direction you turned the bars. That speed is not the same for every bike, but generally if you can comfortably take your hands off the bars and maintain stability then you're in counter-steering country. If you're below a brisk walk you're almost certainly into "steer where you want to go" territory.

On a road bike, on the road, at counter-steer speed it’s good to either stay in line with the bike or drop your inside shoulder a tad. At a walk, leaning the bike further into the turn and leaning the body out a bit to compensate works better, tightens the turn radius up. I’ve found it helps to initially keep the shoulders parallel to the bars as you lower the bike towards the inside and then turn the bars into the turn. Seems to help establish the new balance relationship before you start having to worry about turning. The same rule applies for the head, look back in the direction you want to go before you turn. As always the best way to learn these techniques is on a field, trying to turn inside a couple of markers. I often actually stand up to manage tight U turns, but that’s just previous practice for an entirely different type of riding interfering.

**FJRider** · 14th March 2013, 15:41

Originally Posted by Grashopper

For the record I'm not talking about countersteering here, but counterleaning, where you stabilise the bike in slow speed maneuvers like u-turns by sitting upright or leaning slightly opposite the way the bike does.

As far as U-turns go ... if it feels good/right ... do it. The principals of staying upright (so to speak) on a bike vary so much ... in each maneuver/road condition/situation that a motorcyclist finds themselves in. If you need to think about what you are doing ... often as not you'll get it/do it ... wrong ...

Don't over think it. (a bit like counter steering) ... JUST DO IT ...

**GrayWolf** · 14th March 2013, 16:23

Originally Posted by Grashopper

For the record I'm not talking about countersteering here, but counterleaning, where you stabilise the bike in slow speed maneuvers like u-turns by sitting upright or leaning slightly opposite the way the bike does.

So, I stumbled across these articles about police motorcycle training which are quite an interesting read:
http://stevelarsen.net/pdfs/PHX%20Po...iningPart1.pdf

But on page 3 when he describes what they did on Day 3 of the training course he is saying that counterleaning is a bad habit and I'm pretty sure he is still talking about slow speed maneuvering.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

it's not taught on track days, so it cant be any good. ONLY TRACK DAYS can teach you how to handle your bike, throw away ANYTHING else that isnt 'track teaching' related. The UK Police Roadcraft manuals are shit, all the Rossi clones in KB will most assuredly inform you of this. You ONLY need to learn how to control, lean, steer you bike at 100kph+ speeds using lines taught in a 'safe' racetrack environment, road position, threat vectoring, smooth lines are all a crock of shit.... This is KB, they always know better!!

**Grashopper** · 14th March 2013, 16:48

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

Who is Jerry and why is he not replying to my thread?

Originally Posted by GrayWolf

it's not taught on track days, so it cant be any good. ONLY TRACK DAYS can teach you how to handle your bike, throw away ANYTHING else that isnt 'track teaching' related. The UK Police Roadcraft manuals are shit, all the Rossi clones in KB will most assuredly inform you of this. You ONLY need to learn how to control, lean, steer you bike at 100kph+ speeds using lines taught in a 'safe' racetrack environment, road position, threat vectoring, smooth lines are all a crock of shit.... This is KB, they always know better!!

Duh, why do you think I ask that question here?

Oh no, I will never learn cornering then: The GN doesn't go much 100+. And Lines? Vectors? But, but I was never good at maths.

**Marmoot** · 14th March 2013, 17:07

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

Yeah .. I couldn't open the linked file .. but counter-leaning does work .. even at high speed .. you just lean out instead of leaning in ..

Don't......the bike will lean more than it needs to and sooner or later you'd run out of the precious contact patch you need to stay alive as the bike rides on the tyres' shoulders. Particularly when you suddenly realise the bend is tighter than you think, as you try to lean the bike more to compensate. At high speed cornering the tyres are already struggling as they are. Don't add to their problems.