ACC bleating again

[Glowerss]

Mandatory rider and driver training should be introduced. It would be cool to have a team of Katmans teaching situational awareness and it would be cool to have rider skills actually developed.

This, I think, will see a greater decrease in ACC than simply wearing gloves (chances are anyone educated is going wear gloves anyway...)

Why there is no complusary training for bikes/cars baffles me. Is there no real concern for public safety? Is it all about the money?


A fella buys a scoot and hops on it with only the need for a 1L licence and no training, what the fuck do you think will happen? Same goes for n00b bikers, 50hp GS500, no training. Sure a lot of us make it without training, but a lot do not.


Sent from Bethlehem on my ass

Problem is compulsory training would have to be setup properly to have any sort of tangible benefit.
I don't trust the government to be able to do that with any sort of competence.

Take the ACC approved trainer thingerbobbers they did in the last few months.

I'd love to take advantage of the ACC subsidized training they have, but the provider they picked is in bleeding Tauranga. So any money I would save from ACC subsidizing it, would be wasted on petrol there and back and either doing an extremely long and somewhat dangerous amount of riding training in 1 day, or on a place to stay the night.

There are lots of great riding instructors/companies in Auckland, and considering the largest amount of people is centered in and around Auckers, picking somebody in Tauranga (who does most of their training on the track ) reeks of idiocy.

That being said, the amount of people I see going in and out of the AUT bike parking section with shorts/jandals/teeshirt (and the way they ride before getting there) is scary as shit.

[Erelyes]

An interesting read as I just got into biking a month ago at the age of 28 and have gone with a nearly all-gear approach, viz. armoured jacket / boots / gloves and ofc a lid, but not pants. I wonder if I'd have done the same at 18yo.

ACC are of course interested in reducing the cost of accidents. They are an insurance company first and foremost. Any road safety prerogatives they have are secondary; and are at best lip service, at best, consulting / giving feedback to LTNZ or the Road Safety Trust.

I also don't think this has much to do with any accident over say 50kmh where gear is going to help but injury is still likely. I don't see many scooter users geared up; I also don't see many doing over 50. They are probably trying to get a quick win, that is, reducing the cost of people that scrape themselves up on under 50kmh spills (but don't get serious injuries). Which is probably a large proportion of accidents.
Hence the references to road rash in the article rather than fractures, internal bleeding, etc.

Personally I would have zero problems with simple legal requirements like;
-Full-fingered gloves of any sort
-Enclosed (non open toe) shoes
-Long sleeve top

But the only reason I'd have 0 problems with the above is cos I wouldn't ever ride without my gloves, boots, jacket (and jeans).

Or we could just bill people who come off and scrape themselves up without wearing the above. Several hundred/thousand bucks in medical bills might speak to them more than pain.

[ducatilover]

Problem is compulsory training would have to be setup properly to have any sort of tangible benefit.
I don't trust the government to be able to do that with any sort of competence.

Take the ACC approved trainer thingerbobbers they did in the last few months.

I'd love to take advantage of the ACC subsidized training they have, but the provider they picked is in bleeding Tauranga. So any money I would save from ACC subsidizing it, would be wasted on petrol there and back and either doing an extremely long and somewhat dangerous amount of riding training in 1 day, or on a place to stay the night.

There are lots of great riding instructors/companies in Auckland, and considering the largest amount of people is centered in and around Auckers, picking somebody in Tauranga (who does most of their training on the track ) reeks of idiocy.

That being said, the amount of people I see going in and out of the AUT bike parking section with shorts/jandals/teeshirt (and the way they ride before getting there) is scary as shit.

I'm thinking I'll go to the one in Tauranga when I'm up there if I can get my mitts on a bike

If I go to a training session, thingymabob I'll write a review

Sent from my Aston Martin using a cassete tape

[nerrrd]

I'm doing one of the subsidised Prorider courses on the road in South Auckland in a couple of weeks...so you don't necessarily have to go to Tauranga or a racetrack.

[f2dz]

Oh the horror! An article with valid points is posted to the interwebs and listen to the cries of foul by the poor widdle motorcyclists.

For fucks sake people, pull your heads in. While the best option is not to have a crash in the first place, we need to do what we can to minimize the results. It's the cost of the accidents that ACC gives a shit about, not how many there are.

This summer I have a seen an unusually high amount of people riding around in t-shirt and shorts - most of them have been on sports bikes, closely followed by large cruisers. Just plain stupid.

What a bunch of fucking whingers. Harden up you precious bastards.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I quite agree with chap above, well written.

"While the best option is not to have a crash in the first place, we need to do what we can to minimize the results"

No gloves is just moronic. Oh but its too hot. Oh I need the extra control. Horseshit!

Look at how the article is written. The journo has a snippet of a story & for some balance has asked some riding instructor his opinion. But the double edged sword is it makes him look like he's cooking up this report. Clearly he's not attached to it, he just gave an opinion which would probably mirror anyone involved in training. Dress like you might have an accident today. its pretty fukn simple.

[James Deuce]

Yeah I quite agree with chap above, well written.

"While the best option is not to have a crash in the first place, we need to do what we can to minimize the results"

No gloves is just moronic. Oh but its too hot. Oh I need the extra control. Horseshit!

Look at how the article is written. The journo has a snippet of a story & for some balance has asked some riding instructor his opinion. But the double edged sword is it makes him look like he's cooking up this report. Clearly he's not attached to it, he just gave an opinion which would probably mirror anyone involved in training. Dress like you might have an accident today. its pretty fukn simple.

Amen. As Dave knows, Andrew's the last person to seek profit over his trainee's competence and safety (in that order, he's not stupid) and I'm surprised that he has appeared so calm as quoted, over the issues in the article published. He is somewhat impatient with obvious stupidity or arrogance in the face of superior knowledge, what with also being human and all. Bear in mind that a training business is a business, so it has to at least show some profit to allow for re-investment.

Pisspot helmets, no gloves or fingerless gloves, wife beaters, and especially jandals are all fecking stupid, but thank your lucky stars it's still a choice. The moment legislation kicks in, you'll have the choice of one or two manufacturer's products that meet specialist standards for NZ's potential legislation and it will be a seller's market.

I don't care what you wear on a bike even when I'm listening to you cry and blubber about how much it hurts to have the dirt scrubbed out of your skinless arse with a wire brush and no anaesthetic, but don't expect me to do anything except roll my eyes if you repeat the same mistake with the same consequence.

The no gloves thing is weird. I'm not wiping your arse while the skin grafts take and the bones heal, and I'm pretty sure that your Mum will be unhappy about doing it for you but probably won't complain. Or your partner, if they bother to stick around. Mum or partner will go on and fucking on about those dangerous fucking motorbikes though and that is ten times worse than ACC articles about how stupid people can be.

[kakapo76]

Yeah I quite agree with chap above, well written.

"While the best option is not to have a crash in the first place, we need to do what we can to minimize the results"

No gloves is just moronic. Oh but its too hot. Oh I need the extra control. Horseshit!

Look at how the article is written. The journo has a snippet of a story & for some balance has asked some riding instructor his opinion. But the double edged sword is it makes him look like he's cooking up this report. Clearly he's not attached to it, he just gave an opinion which would probably mirror anyone involved in training. Dress like you might have an accident today. its pretty fukn simple.

FWIW I am a funeral director with the largest geographic Police district in NZ (Canterbury) I and my team attend all Police fatalities in our area and have done so for the past 3 1/2 years (about 900 in all). Admittedly we dont attend non fatalities so the whole skin issue is moot and this is anecdotal so take it as you will.
The last 4 motorcycle fatalies I have attended (there were others) involved the following a) 1 adult scooter- (large horrible Honda thingame) older rider- too fast on a bend lost it lowside and wore the metal barrier no other vehicle involved. Full gear top to bottom. Instant death. b) Kawasaki zx10, going like hell country country road, failed to take a bend, hit a strainer post with head, shattered helmet. Dead. jeans and jacket, no gloves. c) Harley rider, impatient following too close on State HW 1, failed to see minivan indicating passed as the van turned right- t boned the drivers door, pushed the van some 60 meters into a ditch, broke everything you can imagine- full leathers etc etc, good thing for me as he was only intact becuase the leather hadn't torn. Dead. d) Urban street, sports bike, pulling a wheely in the early am, speeding, t boned a truck that did not see him. Helmet and jacket nothing else. Dead.

All of theses "accidents" were totally preventable BY THE MOTORCYCLIST, I ride a ZZR 1100- and just the other day took off after a bad day at work and attempted a stupid passing manouver, had to pull out, had it all locked up etc etc- basically had to give myself a mental slap to pull my head in- helmet, gloves and jacket- work pants no boots (even though I had them at work- was too lazy to put them on.) moral of this tale is we are the ones on the bikes- if we die we don't just hurt ourselves (contrary to the whole lone wolf myth perpetuated by many on mc blogs) so as a society a little collectiive responsibility doesn't actually hurt- I attended two ACC sponsored training days last year cost me $50 each time- Dan Ormsby helped me a lot- told me to bascially get the best kit you can buy and then ride like everyone else is an idiot- nothing new here but sound advice I think. My two cents.

[James Deuce]

In reference to the above, I've been horribly injured in motorcycle accidents over the years and have always been wearing what passed for "full", and "quality" gear at the time. I'm not convinced it works but I wear it to make sure that there's less of a mess when I "only" get hurt so my wife doesn't have too much extra to do in life. I'm not that concerned about the dying thing, that's a Funeral Director's "problem", however odds are if it is me killed, then I'll be in a neat and tidy leather, polycarbonate, ABS, faux-leather bag. So to speak. Hope that helps.

[F5 Dave]

FWIW I am a funeral director with the largest geographic Police district in NZ (Canterbury) I and my team attend all Police fatalities in our area and have done so for the past 3 1/2 years (about 900 in all). Admittedly we dont attend non fatalities so the whole skin issue is moot and this is anecdotal so take it as you will.
The last 4 motorcycle fatalies I have attended (there were others) involved the following a) 1 adult scooter- (large horrible Honda thingame) older rider- too fast on a bend lost it lowside and wore the metal barrier no other vehicle involved. Full gear top to bottom. Instant death. b) Kawasaki zx10, going like hell country country road, failed to take a bend, hit a strainer post with head, shattered helmet. Dead. jeans and jacket, no gloves. c) Harley rider, impatient following too close on State HW 1, failed to see minivan indicating passed as the van turned right- t boned the drivers door, pushed the van some 60 meters into a ditch, broke everything you can imagine- full leathers etc etc, good thing for me as he was only intact becuase the leather hadn't torn. Dead. d) Urban street, sports bike, pulling a wheely in the early am, speeding, t boned a truck that did not see him. Helmet and jacket nothing else. Dead.

All of theses "accidents" were totally preventable BY THE MOTORCYCLIST, I ride a ZZR 1100- and just the other day took off after a bad day at work and attempted a stupid passing manouver, had to pull out, had it all locked up etc etc- basically had to give myself a mental slap to pull my head in- helmet, gloves and jacket- work pants no boots (even though I had them at work- was too lazy to put them on.) moral of this tale is we are the ones on the bikes- if we die we don't just hurt ourselves (contrary to the whole lone wolf myth perpetuated by many on mc blogs) so as a society a little collectiive responsibility doesn't actually hurt- I attended two ACC sponsored training days last year cost me $50 each time- Dan Ormsby helped me a lot- told me to bascially get the best kit you can buy and then ride like everyone else is an idiot- nothing new here but sound advice I think. My two cents.

I've read your post a few time & it is interesting, but I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from it, but perhaps that wasn't the point.
You almost seem like the start is an argument that no matter the gear in a bad accident you're going to die. Yes valid.
Sorry if I've misconstrued.

I was more concerned with the skin on road & broken bones aspect.

Jims summary (2 posts back) is more my point & from own experience racing; falling off hurts. Upgrading your gear is more likely to make a crash non injury, but of course I have been injured in what I call decent gear. But even things like knuckle armour help stopping your hand swelling up like has happened in plain gloves.

I just can't imagine the grief you'd cause yourself ripping your hands up in chip seal, for the effort of slipping on some gloves.

[kakapo76]

In reference to the above, I've been horribly injured in motorcycle accidents over the years and have always been wearing what passed for "full", and "quality" gear at the time. I'm not convinced it works but I wear it to make sure that there's less of a mess when I "only" get hurt so my wife doesn't have too much extra to do in life. I'm not that concerned about the dying thing, that's a Funeral Director's "problem", however odds are if it is me killed, then I'll be in a neat and tidy leather, polycarbonate, ABS, faux-leather bag. So to speak. Hope that helps.

Sorry if I came across unfeeling- my only point is that it seems practical to do everything we can to look after ourselves on the road, whether thats good gear, a mechanically sound bike, good riding practice and generally smart choices on the road- me I dont always get it right and am the first person to put my hand up when I have been a muppet- in regards to your point about 'only getting hurt'- dying is not the worst outcome for some so lets be safe, love to ride and come home safe- not trying to preach here, just have more experience than most cleaning up the mess.

[ducatilover]

Sorry if I came across unfeeling- my only point is that it seems practical to do everything we can to look after ourselves on the road

Problem being we may as well not pilot vehicles if that's the case.

I think the issue here is what's a "reasonable" amount of gear?
I'm an ATGATT fella, but other people aren't really concerned and in some respects it is their responsibility. But then we have the problem of ACC and our rates going up.

So it comes back to Katman's point, crash less.
And my point, rider/driver awareness training


And boobies, because I cannot make a serious post

Sent from my desk using a well earned beer

[kakapo76]

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1130516513]I've read your post a few time & it is interesting, but I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from it, but perhaps that wasn't the point.
You almost seem like the start is an argument that no matter the gear in a bad accident you're going to die. Yes valid.
Sorry if I've misconstrued.

QUOTE].

No not really- its the normal outcome for me in my profession- would be good to get some feedback from an ambo or two to see what injuries they commonly deal with. In the stats quoted above- out of 1100 odd accidents 44 were fatal so about 4% that indicates that the rest all suffered some form of injury- what we really need to know is how many of those resulted in permanent disability and then correlate those numbers with the gear the rider had on. if you fall off your motocross bike and break a wrist and in 6 weeks everything is back to normal is that injury even relevant to the discussion?

My point is only we have a wider duty of care and as adults who pay through the nose for our pleasures lets take a moment to seperate the "acc angst" from what on the surface of it seems a simple step- wear decent gear, its mandatory on the track why wouldn't it be on the road?

[James Deuce]

Sorry if I came across unfeeling- my only point is that it seems practical to do everything we can to look after ourselves on the road, whether thats good gear, a mechanically sound bike, good riding practice and generally smart choices on the road- me I dont always get it right and am the first person to put my hand up when I have been a muppet- in regards to your point about 'only getting hurt'- dying is not the worst outcome for some so lets be safe, love to ride and come home safe- not trying to preach here, just have more experience than most cleaning up the mess.

You're the last person who needs to apologise. I'm merely pointing out that I am now as fatalistic as the average Muscovite and my goal in riding motorcycles is to cause the least amount of hassle for the smallest number of people possible. If that includes tagging and bagging myself prior to every ride, so be it. If anything, I'm the unfeeling one.

I don't agree with compulsory ATGATT mainly because it will drive the number of riders down massively and a small market will be lumbered with a small number of "approved" suppliers who will be encouraged to gouge the remaining market to ensure that the market shrinks further. Either by design or simple Keynesian practice.

[willytheekid]

Remember Britney?...the road rash girl

This was a result of sliding 522 feet down the highway at 120mph...with only a helmet on!

She and many friends have started up a new web site called "Rock The Gear" due to the above accident and the injuries she recieved.
http://www.rockthegear.org/


Thought this vid from neil summed it up nicely



Just wear the gear KBers...it CAN save your life...and the skin on your arse! (I know this due to loosing half an arse cheek when I was young and bullet proof...no gear...dog ran out...hit it, slide, grate, slide...LOTS of blood and pain...followed by months of rehab...dont learn the hard way like I did...it fucking hurts!!)


Ride smart, ride safe KBers