Christmas Carnage

[gotopaz50]

Oh my god! Could there have been a worse holiday period for bikers? (Yes, I know there has been!)

I cannot believe that we have had so many accidents this Christmas period.
The worst part are the single vehicle incidents and the ones of our own making!

We are trying to convince the government and ACC that this is a safe hobby!

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

The police can put as much effort into prevention, but at the end of the day, they don't have their hands on the throttle!

There is also a focus on educating the riders. I did a Prorider "Ride for Ever" course last October. These are fantastic and cater for everyone from every skill level. I would highly recommend them.

What about the tin can pilots?
They need to be taught that it takes more than a glance to judge speed and distance, especially looking out for the two wheeled fraternity. They need to understand that the 2000Kg weapon they have in their hands can a lot of damage. I think the bar should be raised further.

There are still a whole lot of 'drivers' (and I use the term loosely) out there that shouldn't be driving. I heard via a third party that "it takes too much paper work to process drivers breaking their license conditions". This was from a police officer! Haven't they been provided with the latest electronic equipment to lookup a license and print off a ticket?
We have unlicensed drivers out there either on illegal licenses, invalid licenses or none at all. It's pretty hard to maintain a high skill level when this happens. How many times do we hear that a crash was caused or involved a driver who was not supposed to be driving?

The quality of driving in the country is the worst I have ever come across, and I am a kiwi!

The NZ Herald published a story today on Red light offenders in Auckland, after that nasty bicycle accident.
It has gotten so bad in Auckland that if you are on your bike at the front of the queue, you risk a tail end shunt if you stop for the red. This is disgusting! I have already had my butt clenching moments with the squeal of tyres from behind. This eventually turned into a real shunt at a Stop sign.
I think the meaning of the Stop signs in Auckland are "Stop if you have to"!

To close and repeat a phrase that I heard long ago";
"There's Old Riders out there and Bold Riders out there, but there are no Old, Bold Riders"

Thanks.

[SMOKEU]

Until there is a significant improvement in driver training and enforcement for truly dangerous activities (not including speeding on a quiet road), then expect nothing to change.

[wingnutt]

Well, I agree, It doesn’t say much for the 104kph restriction does it either but then, it never was going to. Everyone seems to know about this except corporate cops. Funny that.

From a complete strict numbers game, which is what corporate cops and politicians work on, someone hasn’t done their bean counting properly, if you reduce death on the roads (cheaper) it will be replaced by serious injury (expensive) as accidents will continue to happen.

I’m afraid all the problems on the road can be put under one word really, and that is ATTITUDE. From the boy racer who decides to show his mates he/she is such wonderful driver, to the granny who holds up 50 cars on the open road, its all about attitude.

Speed does not cause accidents, it along with 100’s of other factors, merely dictates, how bad the accident is going to be, and that determines the type of injury.

Accidents start way before they happen, where they happen, is the direct result, of behavior/attitude before the accident, and this is what corporate cops should be targeting. ITS ABOUT ATTITUDE YOU WANKERS , GET OFF YOU FAT ARSES AND START LOOKING AT ATTITUDE, Oh right, there is no money in it sorry I spoke.,

Speaking of attitude, has anybody figured out why cagers speed up when they see a rider coming up behind, its happening so regular now, I get surprised when they don’t I just can’t figure out why they do it.

[BigAl]

There were a few multi vehicle incidents too, car vs bike.

Of course biker came out worst, latest being what sounded like a ute turning in front of bike in the weekend.

[Waihou Thumper]

Oh my god! Could there have been a worse holiday period for bikers? (Yes, I know there has been!)

I cannot believe that we have had so many accidents this Christmas period.
The worst part are the single vehicle incidents and the ones of our own making!

We are trying to convince the government and ACC that this is a safe hobby!

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

The police can put as much effort into prevention, but at the end of the day, they don't have their hands on the throttle!

There is also a focus on educating the riders. I did a Prorider "Ride for Ever" course last October. These are fantastic and cater for everyone from every skill level. I would highly recommend them.

What about the tin can pilots?
They need to be taught that it takes more than a glance to judge speed and distance, especially looking out for the two wheeled fraternity. They need to understand that the 2000Kg weapon they have in their hands can a lot of damage. I think the bar should be raised further.

There are still a whole lot of 'drivers' (and I use the term loosely) out there that shouldn't be driving. I heard via a third party that "it takes too much paper work to process drivers breaking their license conditions". This was from a police officer! Haven't they been provided with the latest electronic equipment to lookup a license and print off a ticket?
We have unlicensed drivers out there either on illegal licenses, invalid licenses or none at all. It's pretty hard to maintain a high skill level when this happens. How many times do we hear that a crash was caused or involved a driver who was not supposed to be driving?

The quality of driving in the country is the worst I have ever come across, and I am a kiwi!

The NZ Herald published a story today on Red light offenders in Auckland, after that nasty bicycle accident.
It has gotten so bad in Auckland that if you are on your bike at the front of the queue, you risk a tail end shunt if you stop for the red. This is disgusting! I have already had my butt clenching moments with the squeal of tyres from behind. This eventually turned into a real shunt at a Stop sign.
I think the meaning of the Stop signs in Auckland are "Stop if you have to"!

To close and repeat a phrase that I heard long ago";
"There's Old Riders out there and Bold Riders out there, but there are no Old, Bold Riders"

Thanks.

Nice first post....I agree with most of this and Yes, we as a country have poor driving skills and attitudes. The culture, complacency in both camps....
Do you get dressed to ride thinking that I will be hit and do the best you can to prevent it? it'sa Bugger really.....

[SPman]

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

Stop talking sense - even in aviation, there was an attempt to impose the police "prosecute somebody - anybody" mentality over the Palmerston North air crash some years ago!

Anyway - very few will learn from the results - those that would, probably already have - the rest are better than perfect and don't need to know any of that, because nothing will happen to them / it's someone else's fault....etc...etc.

Yep - attitude - and that's always going to be harder to police and have less monetary returns, so they'll just keep banging the same drum - beat everyone over the head with bigger and bigger sticks, set totally unrealistic targets and carry on - business as usual. Meanwhile, small pockets of individual police will try and do their bit, while the bulk will do as instructed by their increasingly political and sociopathic superiors.........and public perception of the police will slide further into the gutter......

[quickbuck]

Agree, nice first post. And agree with it all.
Going by the course that the OP did, I would say he forgot to mention ATTITUDE in his post as a point because it is drummed in so hard that it is the overriding thing in all that we do.

I reckon publishing the Accidents somewhere so we can all learn from them is a great thing....
We get the Safety Mags at work too, and I read through some of the things that happen in Aviation and point it out to the guys.
This way we can all learn and try and not make the same mistake. For those that don't know they publish both operator error and maintenance error, Fatal and non-fatal. Aircraft damage is catagorised and anything from major to write off is published..... Yes, yes if we did that for bikes, then it will be an enormous book! That says something right there...

As SPman says, few will actually learn from just reading what is written down in front of them.
One has to be trained into that way of thinking first....
So, the instructors of Ride Forever courses can pass it on I guess...
Which still leads to the issue of the 90% who are too good for courses not going along to do them, or hear the good gen.

SO, Gotopaz50, would you like to share your little off?
PM me if you like (When you get more than 5 posts under your belt I think it is).

[Tazz]

Shit happens, people make mistakes or are victims of circumstance, life goes on (or not, but it ends one day anyway).

Releasing the details of those lone rider accidents would be good though, but I doubt many would bother reading them.

As to the people who cause problems for others, well, not only are they breeding faster than they're dying, but they really don't care no matter what 'rules' or statistical jargon you throw at them, so it's a bit of a tricky fight

[Milts]

I used to fly small aircraft and the results of air accidents get published so others can learn from mistakes.
I would like to see NZTA start doing the same thing. They can make the names anonymous, but lets really find out what the cause of these accidents are and put it to the riders to fix it.

You know what? If you make an OIA request, I'm pretty sure they legally have to provide you with exactly those details. But they have little enough money as it is to rewrite and republish it unless a formal request is made.

[Ripperjon]

I totally agree with accident details being collected and published for us to learn from.
I am a skydiver and BASE jumper and both sports have accident lists compiled and published in the form of forum threads, which are excellent learning tools.
They usually start with 'i heard this happened' type posts, but often the actual victims or witnesses chime in with first-hand details.
In the absence of anything official, why don't we ask a Moderator to make a sub-forum in the 'survival skills' section where we can share what we know.
I don't think a thread would cut it as it'd get messy quickly, but a sub-forum with a thread per event would probably work well.
What do you guys/gals think?

[pritch]

I totally agree with accident details being collected and published for us to learn from.

So where are we going to find someone qualified to make an objective assessment of the details?

Usually all we get is some po-faced dimwit intoning, "It is believed that speed and alcohol may have been factors."

If you want a statement of the blindingly obvious, whether it's right or not, we've got just the people. If you want an intelligent appraisal by someone who is qualified and knows that of which they speak, that may be more difficult.

[Tink]

Take away the gun, and the bullets, and they will have nothing!

Fed up with bad driving, riding, and cycling!!!!!!

I drive minimal in comparison to others, but it takes me 25 min to get home, and at least once in every trip I suffer at least minimum #1 Tail gater #1 speeder / overtaker... and a majority sadly are woman tail gators, young male & female & 40 something speeders. Yesterday we had a local fatality, I know and ride/drive the stretch of road often, its a simple piece of road, that driven/ridden safely would/should be accident free. We need better technology in vehicles to stop people from texting / making calls, drinking and driving in vehicles of any sort... the only accident that can be called an accident is one that is beyond the drivers control, the REST ARE PURELY MANSLAUGHTERS WAITING TO HAPPEN...

[RDJ]

Well - the emphasis on the zero-tolerance 104 speed limit pretty much guaranteed that people behind the wheel (and maybe behind the handlebars) would focus their attention on the speedo face and not the road / traffic. What's that from the cheap seats? That's not what the police intended? Oh dear. We've never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences have we?

When the road toll goes down the police rules made that happen.

When the road toll goes up it's all the public's fault and the Axis of Enforcement had nothing to do with it.

Yeah, right.

[Gremlin]

In the absence of anything official, why don't we ask a Moderator to make a sub-forum in the 'survival skills' section where we can share what we know.
I don't think a thread would cut it as it'd get messy quickly, but a sub-forum with a thread per event would probably work well.
What do you guys/gals think?

Part of forum rules is that there is no speculation on serious incidents and no mention of names until publicly notified. Further, most situations will involve further legal proceedings, and unlikely for anything to be mentioned while it's before the courts.

[R650R]

Those air accident reports make interesting reading, read a whole stack at library once for a high school project/assignment of some kind.

Couple of years ago one of the truck magazines printed some police serious truck crash reports, level of detail was interesting.
Didn't last long as talking about crashes in that industry is a sacred cow and probably too many complained about it instead of trying to learn.
But I suspect with bikes you read pages and pages and find the same thing, its that nut behind the steering wheel or triple clamp that causes most stuff.
As riders/drivers we like to think the roads are factor but the police methods for measuring them usually reports the surface as adequate despite what we as road users experience.