Big vs small? (bikes)

[JimmyC]

I'd like to get feedback from other inmates on the theory that learning off road skills on small\light bikes will prep you successfully for heavier ones. ie: how much of what I've learned on something around 130kg's will still be relevant on something 200kg's+? To be clear, I'm talking about 'adventure' riding here, not enduro\trail riding.

Over on the ADVrider forums a rider pointed out that to them, riding a bigger bike (ie: ~200kg's+) off road is that much different, skills transference from a bike handling perspective is a moot point. Since I will be looking for a larger bike come end of year I'm interested to hear what people think about that, especially since you can't test ride bikes off road (technically...).

As examples, the KLR, 660 Tenere, F800GS\A are on my try out list, and all are between 200-230kgs wet.

[Akzle]

forget the bm. Ideally tenere. Klr if you have to.

[george formby]

I ride an obese bike on gravel & a waif. Prior to the waif coming into the fold my learning progress on the TDM was slow, I just did not want to push my limits with so much mass. Technically I knew how to do it, but..

Any hoo. Knowing that if I went a bit awry on the DT, a size 11 boot would fix it I was far more comfortable practising rear wheel steering, down hill braking & steering with the foot rests. It instantly translated to the big bike & put the right thought processes in place. Has improved my enjoyment of the big un no end. It's still a handful when it starts to slide around but I can shift my weight & balance much quicker, I anticipate what is going to happen earlier & I can brake harder. Sometimes it felt unstoppable when I started riding on the gravel, I no longer get that feeling.

So, yeah, na, yeah. Can't agree with the ADV comments. They all has two wheels.

[oneblackflag]

I think manufacturers have lost a lot of their market in recent years to the much taller seat heights.

I doubt it.

[Devil]

I believe it's easier to learn the important base skills on a light bike, cement those skills, which you can then take the big bikes.
I think you can learn the same skills on the big bikes to a point, but I think it's harder and slower and when it goes wrong, it REALLY goes wrong.
From a former R1200GS Adventure owner, currently on an a 690 Enduro R, although I had a 200 EXC and TTR600 before the big beemer.

[clint640]

Wot George said. Bigger bikes are harder to ride offroad but skills learned on small ones will help lots.

Most of the freakishly good big bike riders I know built their skills getting off light bikes & onto enduro race podiums in previous years.

Cheers
Clint

[JimmyC]

Perhaps the odd thing for me having not ridden a larger bike off road (I have ridden them on road), it seems like it should be a smoother experience than my current WR. The gearing in 1st and 2nd on the WR is really high, and whether it’s twitchy fuel injection or not I dunno, keeping a smooth throttle can be tough, especially when tired. It’s a fine line between steady throttle, or throwing yourself back with a bad throttle tweak, or no throttle and rocking forward under engine braking. Bigger bikes have longer pulls in 1st and 2nd, perhaps requiring more clutch at slower speeds, but that translates to more control by my way of thinking.

I also find the light weight of the WR at times almost a downside, as it seems too flickable in some cases. Being less skittish, more planted would seem to be a good thing, the downside being when\if things go wrong on a larger bike, the consequences will likely be more severe. But again, trouble should telegraph itself earlier.

Higher seat height doesn’t bother me really, I’m 6’1” but am used to tip toeing on the WR. I also hate to feel cramped when seated.

[Gremlin]

I think learning the skills on a smaller lighter bike makes more sense, and you don't have the weight and power of the big bikes complicating things.

Current 12GSA owner, but I've never ridden dirt bikes, and first real forays into adventure riding were just before getting the GSA, on a 990 Supermoto, then I opted for a better adventure bike (the GSA). You learn fast that momentum is your friend for most situations, and sand is your mortal enemy...

Depending on what you get, make sure you can physically man-handle it. This doesn't mean you can just get your foot down in the dealer's showroom, but when you've got luggage on and uneven ground with your feet sliding around on the gravel. Oh, and make sure you can pick it up afterwards as well. If you're doing proper adventure riding, then you would likely drop it regularly, or at least, I did I figured if I wasn't dropping it, then it wasn't really enough adventure yet.

You also get a workout controlling it, when you've got it kicking sideways, rear stepped out, and launching rocks at those behind you (the little bikes only throw stones). Feels great though

Anyway, the bikes you're considering I would have thought are more mid capacity, but then most don't consider the 12GSA to be an adventure bike.

[JimmyC]

Anyway, the bikes you're considering I would have thought are more mid capacity, but then most don't consider the 12GSA to be an adventure bike.

You're exactly right. The ADV rider I referenced originally is a 1200GSA rider so maybe that's it. A 1200GSA is almost twice the weight of a WR so it's hardly a beginners bike, yet you've had more experience off road on that than anything before hand. Once you get into that 200-220+ kg category, does an extra 20-30kg's really make any more difference? On the surface it would seem a very fine line between mid capacity and your 12GSA.

[Waihou Thumper]

cement those skills,

Buy that concrete XT600 on Trade Me, that would do it...
For sure! Watch out for Alkali burns though...

[Dave h]

Jimmy have you thought about a 690r as a replacement/addition to your WRR?

[FJRider]

I'd like to get feedback from other inmates on the theory that learning off road skills on small\light bikes will prep you successfully for heavier ones.

If every time you went "Off Road" .. it was the same ... it might help.

But ... (seldom) is it so ...

Experience is something you need ... just before you get it.

Enjoy getting experience. On whatever bike you happen to have ...

[oneblackflag]

Jimmy have you thought about a 690r as a replacement/addition to your WRR?

Im not Jimmy.... But I have it in the back of my mind

[Gremlin]

You're exactly right. The ADV rider I referenced originally is a 1200GSA rider so maybe that's it. A 1200GSA is almost twice the weight of a WR so it's hardly a beginners bike, yet you've had more experience off road on that than anything before hand. Once you get into that 200-220+ kg category, does an extra 20-30kg's really make any more difference? On the surface it would seem a very fine line between mid capacity and your 12GSA.

It's not so much weight per se. A full tank of fuel in the 12GSA, and it's holding all that weight up high, plus the weight itself would be 35-40kg. You can actually feel the difference in suspension response (bit sluggish when full and a bit bouncy when empty). Of course, not recommended to have a full tank when tackling rougher stuff, but it's fun grinning at all the other riders as they argue about needing a gas station (150km? Nah, 650km more like it). Your smug grin vanishes when they look at you like vampires

Devil is sub 6 foot, had the GSA, but if he needed to back it up, he had to get off, even on a slight slope. The 12GSA is the first bike I've had I can't just back up if I park it into a kerb, so a small learning curve there. I'm 6'3, 100kg (ok, maybe a little more) so wielding the bike is OK, but many simply can't buy/handle one because of it's size, seat height, width etc. It's one of the physically biggest bikes I've come across (except a K1600 and Goldwing I guess) and is also taller than some people In that sense, the "fine line" may be a line that can't be crossed, but I think from your comments previously, the 8GSA isn't going to be much shorter in the seat height. Still, yes, I think that increase can be a step too far. The 12GSA handles really well when on the move, but stationary, she's a big beast.

Also, the 8GSA et al will come with different tyre sizes. 21" front, what, 19" rear? Pros and cons. I've thought about an 8GSA, but the 12GSA suits me best for the wide variety of demands, and from a single bike. The 8GSA will have better adventure tyre options, the 12GSA has better road tyre options. Depends on use I guess.

I guess I've proven you can go straight into a big bike for adventure riding, but then I've always taken it easy, and never pretended to be great at it, just enjoying travelling the scenic trails/rivers that road bikes wouldn't. Crash bars around the sensitive stuff (even the stock 12GSA bars don't go far enough for the cylinders) and it does give you more piece of mind and allow you to be more adventurous. The more rough stuff is ideally done with a mate, just tell them you want to explore (it should take them a little time to realise you just need another hand to pick it up).

[pampa]

my one cent is small bike helps as long as you try to learn good technique, if you just paddling everywhere then not sure ...
also the question of picking them up is important even if you don't fall often as when you do is likely to be on a difficult place. I personally don't like the idea of needing 2+ people to lift the bike