11 September - 4 years on

**Waylander** · 13th September 2005, 01:46

Originally Posted by Ixion

Dunno about all that. Too late at night and I don't have Jack Daniels or Famous Grouse. Just port. I have Muslim friends and USAian friends. All good people, I don't understand why they would want to kill one another. I wonder though: if we'd had the military muscle to do it, wouldn't we have wanted to bomb the shit out of France after Rainbow Warrior? Or not? Patriotism struggles with human decency here, I can't answer

That was mostly my point. Everyone tries to mock the states for this or that but the fact is if they were in the same position they wouldn't do any better.

As for Muslim peaple. I have nothing against them. The majority are perfectly great peaple it's just the few that fuck it up like anything else. And those few use the rest as a shield making it worse.

And the only thing I have running through me is a cold burning fury. No alchohol at all. Can't even go for a ride cause the gas I got in it has to last me two weeks till I get paid again. Fuck it I'm gone catch y'all in a few hours when I get back.

Sorry for bringing negative kharma into your thread SARGE.

**SARGE** · 13th September 2005, 08:28

Originally Posted by MikeL

. Why are you surprised that civilians are targets? How many Iraqi civilians have you killed?

not enough Mike.. maybe if its Eye For an Eye we should get creative.. lets just see how Oz reacts if Melbourne gets hit as threatened..

**Krayy** · 13th September 2005, 08:30

Originally Posted by SARGE

KRAVY DRIVES A 4WD!!!

nice dress by the way

I HAVE AN EXCUSE (for the 4wd, not the dress

)!!

The 4wd belongs to my Outlaws who are overseas and we're baby sitting it for them. It's not mine, I swear!! (mines a Dunny-door gas-guzzling wagon) Hate driving that thing actually. Feels like it's got a 20 degree lean on every corner. The daughter thinks it's great fun.

**MikeL** · 13th September 2005, 09:23

Originally Posted by Waylander

Tell ya what, let's have them fly planes into your buildings killing your peaple and see how yea react. Fuck man!!! You step on a bobcat's paw you're gonna get bitten.
Maybe america should just keep it's nose out of the middle east. ...
And for you to be blind to that fact make you an idiot. If you disagree with me then ohwell shit happens. Clean it or eat it.

But the point is that it didn't happen here. There is no reason for it to happen here. What happened on 11th September in NY was not a random act. There was a logic behind it, even if you don't accept the reasoning. What is deplorable is not that you don't accept it, but that you are not willing to understand it. Trouble is, trying to comprehend your enemy's motives can come uncomfortably close to admitting your own faults.

"Maybe if America had kept its nose out of the Middle East!" Well, yes...
If the U.S. policy is to intervene wherever injustice occurs regardless of their own self-interest I might be able to take their moral high ground seriously.

"And for you to be blind to that fact makes you an idiot."

None so blind as those that will not see...

**Big Dave** · 13th September 2005, 10:10

Originally Posted by MikeL

There was a logic behind it, even if you don't accept the reasoning.

No it wasn't - there is NO logic in that shit and the reasoning is irrational.

**Big Dave** · 13th September 2005, 10:10

Originally Posted by SARGE

not enough Mike.. maybe if its Eye For an Eye we should get creative.. lets just see how Oz reacts if Melbourne gets hit as threatened..

Hopefully like the English and not you lot.

**Beemer** · 13th September 2005, 10:58

Like many people, I can vividly remember what I was doing when I heard the news of the bombings. At first I thought "yeah, right, like THAT could have happened" but when I got into work and saw the tv footage I was stunned. I was working in a call centre at the time and the phones were so quiet it was uncanny. Everyone who did ring was polite and very subdued - not normal for power company customers!

I couldn't stop watching the footage that night, it was horrifying but I had to watch it again and again. It was one of the most terrifying events I had ever seen - in wartime you expect atrocities, but not in peacetime. All I remember thinking was "thank God my father passed away a few months ago, he didn't have to witness this".

I don't care how much people hate each other and how eloquently they can justify their acts of terrorism, this was pure evil.

Yes, I am glad I live in NZ where we are unlikely to experience this kind of terrorism (we just get dickheads throwing rocks off motorway overpasses), but my heart goes out to anyone affected by the bombings.

Good post, Sarge, I get tears in my eyes whenever I hear the Star Spangled Banner and I'm not even American!

**MikeL** · 13th September 2005, 11:31

Originally Posted by Big Dave

No it wasn't - there is NO logic in that shit and the reasoning is irrational.

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

"Irrational reasoning" is an oxymoron. To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose. What better definition of rational do you want?
By preferring to label it "irrational" you avoid having to deal with that awkward question of motives. Just consign them to the category of madmen and get on with the job of killing the bastards.

**Lou Girardin** · 13th September 2005, 11:51

Originally Posted by scumdog

Hmm, at least the American leaders weren't slaughtering en masse their own people just because the didn't support the present regime eh?

Nice alcamahol rant anyway - and using good old J.D. too! Top marks.

They slaughtered 50,000 GI's propping up a corrupt regime in Vietnam. And they're now up to 2000 in Iraq.

The US reaction to the World Trade centre attack was and is like an enraged elephant blindly lashing out in all directions. They don't have a clue.
I also don't accept statements along the lines of it being Bush's fault, not the American people. They relected the bastard with an increased majority, they've got the leadership they deserve.

**Ixion** · 13th September 2005, 11:51

Originally Posted by MikeL

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

"Irrational reasoning" is an oxymoron. To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose. What better definition of rational do you want?
By preferring to label it "irrational" you avoid having to deal with that awkward question of motives. Just consign them to the category of madmen and get on with the job of killing the bastards.

Hm. I think I recall that when the first atom bomb was dropped, there was some doubt whether the crew of the plane would survive, or if the fireball would get the plane also. They still went ahead, and I imagine that they would have done so even if they had known for certain that they would die.

Killing large numbers of civilians (by whatever means) is not pleasant.

But I doubt the crew of the atom bomb plane (Enola Gay ??) considered it to be either immoral or irrational

In war, people do such things. There have been many acts of bravery by servicemen which have resulted in the foreseeable and inevitable death of the doer. Such bravery is not considered wrong or irrational. We give such people (posthumous) medals.

The hijackers of Sep 11 considered themselves soldiers, fighting a war. The exigencies of that war meant that they would die, in the course of an attack on their enemy. They accepted that as being a part of a soldiers duty.

Not immoral, or irrational, or evil. Just very very sad, from every angle.

**WRT** · 13th September 2005, 11:53

Originally Posted by Ixion

Hm. I think I recall that when the first atom bomb was dropped, there was some doubt whether the crew of the plane would survive, or if the fireball would get the plane also. They still went ahead, and I imagine that they would have done so even if they had known for certain that they would die.

The men on the Enola Gay did die from radiation related illness as a result of that flight.

**scumdog** · 13th September 2005, 12:06

Originally Posted by MikeL

See what I mean about an unwillingness to understand?

To deliberately fly a planeload of people into a building is an immoral act but it is not irrational. It was carefully planned and executed and achieved the intended purpose.

Apart from wrecking two planes, two (or more) buildings and killing a shit-load of people WHAT was the 'intended purpose'??

**scumdog** · 13th September 2005, 12:09

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

They slaughtered 50,000 GI's propping up a corrupt regime in Vietnam. And they're now up to 2000 in Iraq.

What a waste, they should do as the old corrupt regime in Iraq did - slaughter them at home and save the transport bill (or con a lot of them to commit suicide).

**Lou Girardin** · 13th September 2005, 12:13

Originally Posted by WRT

The men on the Enola Gay did die from radiation related illness as a result of that flight.

Tibbets, the pilot, is still alive and well. A couple of others were interviewed in August about their part. No one died of radiation sickness, although I think one committed suicide.