A safety framework for discussing motorcycle safety

[swbarnett]

almost.
you can learn something from "zero point" all by your own, but this usually takes about four times the time, and your preparation is always very "shallow".
this is because from a low level ability you can't judge your errors, and tend to reproduce them constantly until something happens to make them pop out.
but it's not guaranteed that they'll pop out without hurting you.

learning from others' experience is the very basis of ours success as species on the planet.
imagine being born in a empty house and never see anyone in your life: you'll have to learn by yourself that fire burns, scissors cut, how to use the fridge...

why would you do that? because you don't want to let go some of your hybris and say "teach me"? bad choice...

All very good points but it seems you've totally missed the point of my comment. Forgive me if I thought it was clear that I was just saying that experience is definitely valuable and not just a case of repeating the same bad habits over and over.



I started my riding career by doing an 8-day riding course (one day a week) at Western Springs in the '80s so I'm well sold on the value of training.

[george formby]

The official view these days is that crashes are inevitable, people will always make mistakes, but the severity of the crash can be reduced by a combination of safe speeds, safe roadsides, safe road users and safe vehicles. That last one pretty much knackers motorbikes if you ask me.

Exacary my thoughts.
I feel we are left out of the decision making process or are irrelevant. But we still have to pay in excess for being ignored, irrelevant & deliberately put at risk with road side barrier design.
I know this thread is about motorcyclist safety but we are the skin on the pudding. I try to look at it as safety for all road users if anything is to change. We are effectively ignored, financially penalised and victimised.
Common sense dictates we look after ourselves individually but it's like shoving shit uphill using a chopstick with the decision makers at the top taking a piss and sharing cost comparisons to get a human change in attitude to general safety.

3 out of your 4 safes have a lot money invested in there production. One does not.

[SuperMac]

So noone can ever learn anything just by doing it?

How do you think the first motorcyclists learned to ride.

Learning from experience is fine, if . . .

1. You need to survive the experience
2. You need to realise something needs changing
3. You need to be able to work out what to change and be able to determine whether it results in an improvement

Some don't manage '1'

2 & 3 are difficult for many.

So is 'training' always the answer? Sadly, no; some elements can be useful, not so much others.

[Urano]

I feel that the emphasis on speed enforcement & shock advertising does not improve safety overall but is intended to limit the severity of accidents.
We have no limitation regardless of speed.

donno NZ situation but, at the cost of being populistic, i feel that at least here in EU the emphasis on speed enforcement is intended only to raise more money in the easiest possible way.
remember that the hugest part of collisions happens at or below 60 kmh.

even sending police to simply check tyres would have better results in regard of safety, but this would mean at least two guys stopping each vehicle instead of an automated computerized plate reader in the police HQ that mails thousands of speed fines...

Forgive me if I thought it was clear that I was just saying that experience is definitely valuable and not just a case of repeating the same bad habits over and over.
[...]
I started my riding career by doing an 8-day riding course (one day a week) at Western Springs in the '80s so I'm well sold on the value of training.

sorry, i was misled by the "first biker" thing.
i think experience is incredibly valuable.
from a "middle upper level" you can even start to analyze your errors and earn experience over experience by your own.
and every experienced guy knows also that even experience could be a cause of error (overconfidence) and has the sense to re-take a basic course once a while or to step down the difficulty of his ride (maybe renting an easy, light 125cc for a trackday...) to "clean the technique"...

[Ocean1]

Learning from experience is fine, if . . .

1. You need to survive the experience
2. You need to realise something needs changing
3. You need to be able to work out what to change and be able to determine whether it results in an improvement

Which is why dirt based experience produces better results.

I sort of agree with Jim, without feedback you learn very little, in fact you accumulate and reinforce bad habits. And the only feedback you get on the road is likely to be fatal. It's no place to learn anything.

In the dirt poor performance is far more likely to result in more useful consequences: enough pain to cause you to try other options, but not usually enough to cripple or kill you.

Would all those in favour of reallocating Akatarawa forest as a public training ground with publicly funded XR200s free from a concession stall at either end please raise your hands.

[pritch]

Raising the standard of Roadcraft will almost certainly be more cost-effective than improving roads

Until I retired I worked with maybe forty women not a single one of whom would have even heard of "road craft". One of the males might have been familiar with the idea having been in the British Police in a former life.

Raising the standard? We'd need to start by introducing the concept.

Depressing isn't it?

[rastuscat]

Riiiiight. So the OP asks a question and nobody is allowed to answer? Odd way to run a forum.

Nope, never said we can't debate issues. But how about being constructive. Or is that too much to ask?

On the positive side, with the NZ exchange rate still going strong my imports of donut batter are going well.

[Blackbird]

Until I retired I worked with maybe forty women not a single one of whom would have even heard of "road craft". One of the males might have been familiar with the idea having been in the British Police in a former life.

Raising the standard? We'd need to start by introducing the concept.

Depressing isn't it?

Ron,

I have a confession Until I joined IAM just over 3 years ago, my knowledge of Roadcraft was pretty much non-existent too, yet the impact on my riding and driving has been immense - a genuine lifesaver. Not bad for a $40 annual subscription and a $50 Advanced Test fee eh?

It is a bit depressing but not depressed at the moment - off to Canada and Alaska for a month later today

[Reckless]

Which is why dirt based experience produces better results.

I sort of agree with Jim, without feedback you learn very little, in fact you accumulate and reinforce bad habits. And the only feedback you get on the road is likely to be fatal. It's no place to learn anything.

In the dirt poor performance is far more likely to result in more useful consequences: enough pain to cause you to try other options, but not usually enough to cripple or kill you.

Would all those in favour of reallocating Akatarawa forest as a public training ground with publicly funded XR200s free from a concession stall at either end please raise your hands.

AMEN! have to agree 100%
I rode dirt and road ( Kawasaki F11 air cooled 250 and it was Brand new lol) with my first bike for about 3 years. Then I rode for 25+ years on the road only. Then started dirt again. I must say I re learned more about how control a bike in the first year back on the dirt than I could ever have imagined I'd forgotten?
When I teach someone to ride its always on the kids CRF150f on the dirt (well in a paddock).
Some road bike training would greatly benefit from a few sessions on bike skill on the dirt.

[MrKiwi]

The official view these days is that crashes are inevitable, people will always make mistakes, but the severity of the crash can be reduced by a combination of safe speeds, safe roadsides, safe road users and safe vehicles. That last one pretty much knackers motorbikes if you ask me.

That's the safe system approach to road safety in a nutshell. The problem/challenge is the safe system for road safety is a concept developed for cars, trucks, buses etc. Motorbikes are a little outside that system, but my view is it is not impossible to bring them in. That's why I, and others are suggesting, making our roads safer for motorcycling is useful, as it targets the safe roads/roadsides bit of the plan. The risk for us bikers is that when we are involved in an accident, our exposure rate is 18-20 higher than in a car. Safer users is addressed by training (good debate in this thread on that one) and I'd rather not talk about safer speeds (but should at some point I guess!)

My view is the last one can be worked on. It's not possible to make bikes as safe as cars, but technology can help to reduce both the rate and severity of accidents. ABS, traction control and motorbike stability control are useful in this respect (at least on tarmac anyway).

[MrKiwi]

AMEN! have to agree 100%
I rode dirt and road ( Kawasaki F11 air cooled 250 and it was Brand new lol) with my first bike for about 3 years. Then I rode for 25+ years on the road only. Then started dirt again. I must say I re learned more about how control a bike in the first year back on the dirt than I could ever have imagined I'd forgotten?
When I teach someone to ride its always on the kids CRF150f on the dirt (well in a paddock).
Some road bike training would greatly benefit from a few sessions on bike skill on the dirt.

Interesting points, and I suspect you're both right.

[MrKiwi]

- off to Canada and Alaska for a month later today

Have a good one - I'm hoping to get up there next year, or maybe 4 weeks through Europe...

[Blackbird]

Have a good one - I'm hoping to get up there next year, or maybe 4 weeks through Europe...

Thanks Mr K ! This one is down to my wife although I'm happy to tag along (despite preferring to spend it on another bike.... shhhhhhh ). Train through the Canadian Rockies, staying with relies on Vancouver Island and a cruise to Alaska with side trips. The nearest we get to 2 wheels is me riding a mountain bike on an Alaskan side trip!

[MrKiwi]

Thanks Mr K ! This one is down to my wife although I'm happy to tag along (despite preferring to spend it on another bike.... shhhhhhh ). Train through the Canadian Rockies, staying with relies on Vancouver Island and a cruise to Alaska with side trips. The nearest we get to 2 wheels is me riding a mountain bike on an Alaskan side trip!

Nice . I bought a bike this year (this week in fact, pick it up in a couple of weeks) hence I'm not heading anywhere overseas in a hurry although I'm aiming to ride the new bike any chance I get ...

[swbarnett]

I sort of agree with Jim, without feedback you learn very little, in fact you accumulate and reinforce bad habits. And the only feedback you get on the road is likely to be fatal. It's no place to learn anything.

While I totally agree that getting training at any stage of a riding career is to be encouraged I honestly believe that what you gain from your own experience depends largely on how self-observant you are. I tend to over-analyse my riding so I've managed to pick up quite a bit from my own mistakes. I used to say that the best way to learn on the road was to first know you current ability and then push beyond that just a little bit at a time. If you tend to under-estimate your own ability this can work very well.

And just to be clear - I agree that experience alone is no substitute for formal training or mentoring when it's available.