A safety framework for discussing motorcycle safety

[Ocean1]

That's why I, and others are suggesting, making our roads safer for motorcycling is useful, as it targets the safe roads/roadsides bit of the plan.

Have I mentioned the signs?



I imagine official types would suggest that they're a safety feature, for all types of vehicle. And they're right, the hard evidence is that they cause accidents.

Not only do they cause accidents for all categories of vehicle but common sense indicates that the more there are on the roadside the higher the injury and fatality rate will be for bikers.

Get rid of the useless, dangerous fucking things.

[Ocean1]

While I totally agree that getting training at any stage of a riding career is to be encouraged I honestly believe that what you gain from your own experience depends largely on how self-observant you are. I tend to over-analyse my riding so I've managed to pick up quite a bit from my own mistakes. I used to say that the best way to learn on the road was to first know you current ability and then push beyond that just a little bit at a time. If you tend to under-estimate your own ability this can work very well.

And just to be clear - I agree that experience alone is no substitute for formal training or mentoring when it's available.

Different subject. Training is limited both by the quantity of motivation available from both sides of the deal and your ability to observe the changes your tutor recommends. If doing something "wrong" feels the same as doing it the way your tutor suggests then the lesson won't stick much where it counts: in your sub-conscious, where the riding of motorcycles actually occurs.

Experience doesn't rely on anyone's interpretation of what's "correct", it simply punished poor decisions. Your sub-conscious remembers that lesson.

Road experience punishes poor decisions by maiming or killing you. Of limited use, unless you're already expert enough to gain your experience in that very narrow band of performance variables which give you useful feedback without killing you. In which case you don't actually need much further experience, do you?

Riding on the dirt not only gives you a much wider band of performance variables to juggle in which to learn your limits but the consequences of any poorly perceived feedback or poor decisions are far more likely to be appropriate for the purposes of improving your perception of the limits of those variables and your skills in managing them.

[swbarnett]

Different subject. Training is limited both by the quantity of motivation available from both sides of the deal and your ability to observe the changes your tutor recommends. If doing something "wrong" feels the same as doing it the way your tutor suggests then the lesson won't stick much where it counts: in your sub-conscious, where the riding of motorcycles actually occurs.

Experience doesn't rely on anyone's interpretation of what's "correct", it simply punished poor decisions. Your sub-conscious remembers that lesson.

Road experience punishes poor decisions by maiming or killing you. Of limited use, unless you're already expert enough to gain your experience in that very narrow band of performance variables which give you useful feedback without killing you. In which case you don't actually need much further experience, do you?

Riding on the dirt not only gives you a much wider band of performance variables to juggle in which to learn your limits but the consequences of any poorly perceived feedback or poor decisions are far more likely to be appropriate for the purposes of improving your perception of the limits of those variables and your skills in managing them.

If I've read this right we're saying the same thing in different ways.

[Reckless]

If I've read this right

Buggered if I know like reading Romeo and Juliet. Thats a compliment BTW

On Dirt You learn to loose grip ( front and rear) and come back, to use your weight, to trust the bike, that its better than you in most cases, Not to shit yourself and freeze, relax even when your in the shit, never give up your options until impact and dirt/woods riding teaches you about 'Target fixation" IN a BIG way!!
If all that fails you really do learn how to fall off with the least damage.

I remember a Bermbuster in Taupo. Thought i was doin real well till the rear kicked me in the ass and tossed me up over the bars.
There's me feet in the air, Helmet down by the front guard, hips on the steering head.
But the CR250 was going along over the ruts straight as a die on its own.
I had this vision If it was human it would have been saying WTF are you doing up there cock, I'm fine
So I clambered back on without falling off and carried on my merry way.
I'm not talking big jumps just woods and trails. Its one arena when you really do learn something everytime you ride.

You never forget shit like that especially in that "OH Fuck" moment when granny has pulled out on you.

Nuff said sorry I digress, back n topic?

[Akzle]

Different subject. Training is limited both by the quantity of motivation available from both sides of the deal and your ability to observe the changes your tutor recommends. If doing something "wrong" feels the same as doing it the way your tutor suggests then the lesson won't stick much where it counts: in your sub-conscious, where the riding of motorcycles actually occurs.

Experience doesn't rely on anyone's interpretation of what's "correct", it simply punished poor decisions. Your sub-conscious remembers that lesson.

Road experience punishes poor decisions by maiming or killing you. Of limited use, unless you're already expert enough to gain your experience in that very narrow band of performance variables which give you useful feedback without killing you. In which case you don't actually need much further experience, do you?

Riding on the dirt not only gives you a much wider band of performance variables to juggle in which to learn your limits but the consequences of any poorly perceived feedback or poor decisions are far more likely to be appropriate for the purposes of improving your perception of the limits of those variables and your skills in managing them.

one should refrain from spurious verbiage when dimunitive communication will suffice.

[SuperMac]

Which is why dirt based experience produces better results.

I sort of agree with Jim, without feedback you learn very little, in fact you accumulate and reinforce bad habits. And the only feedback you get on the road is likely to be fatal. It's no place to learn anything.

In the dirt poor performance is far more likely to result in more useful consequences: enough pain to cause you to try other options, but not usually enough to cripple or kill you.

However . . . doesn't it make more sense to learn how to not get into trouble, rather than what to do when it happens?

This ssems to agree:

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cont.../A1.1.abstract

DOES PRE-LICENSED DRIVING EXPERIENCE AFFECT CRASH RISK AS AN UNSUPERVISED RESTRICTED LICENSED DRIVER? FINDINGS FROM THE NEW ZEALAND DRIVERS STUDY

D Begg1, J Langley1, R Brookland1, P Gulliver1, S Ameratunga2

1Injury Prevention Research Unit, University of Otago, New Zealand
2School of Population Health, University of Auckland, New Zealand

Abstract

Background
There is a popular notion that driving experience before commencing licensing may help improve driver safety as a newly licensed driver. The limited empirical evidence available suggests that the opposite may be the case.

Aim
To examine the relationship between on and off road pre-licensed driving experience and crash risk as an unsupervised restricted licensed driver.

Methods
The New Zealand Drivers Study (NZDS) - a prospective cohort study – included 1,424 15-24 year old drivers who completed study-specific interviews at each licence stage (learner, restricted and full) of the graduated licensing process. Pre-licensed driving experience, car/motorcycle use both on and off road, demographic and behavioural data were obtained at the learner licence interview. Car driving exposure data was obtained at restricted and full licence interviews. Crash data sources were police traffic crash reports and self-reports.

Results
Using multivariate logistic regression, after controlling for potential confounders (driving exposure, gender, residential location, alcohol, cannabis, herbal high use, impulsivity, sensation seeking, aggression/hostility), off road motorcycle use (OR=1.9) was the only pre-licensed driving behaviour associated with crash risk

Contribution to the Field
Overall, pre-licensed driving experience did not affect crash risk when unsupervised driving was allowed, although off road motorcycling may increase risk.

[Ocean1]

However . . . doesn't it make more sense to learn how to not get into trouble, rather than what to do when it happens?

It makes a damned sight more sense to learn both, dunnit?

This ssems to agree:

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/cont.../A1.1.abstract

DOES PRE-LICENSED DRIVING EXPERIENCE AFFECT CRASH RISK AS AN UNSUPERVISED RESTRICTED LICENSED DRIVER? FINDINGS FROM THE NEW ZEALAND DRIVERS STUDY

D Begg1, J Langley1, R Brookland1, P Gulliver1, S Ameratunga2

1Injury Prevention Research Unit, University of Otago, New Zealand
2School of Population Health, University of Auckland, New Zealand

Abstract

Background
There is a popular notion that driving experience before commencing licensing may help improve driver safety as a newly licensed driver. The limited empirical evidence available suggests that the opposite may be the case.

Aim
To examine the relationship between on and off road pre-licensed driving experience and crash risk as an unsupervised restricted licensed driver.

Methods
The New Zealand Drivers Study (NZDS) - a prospective cohort study – included 1,424 15-24 year old drivers who completed study-specific interviews at each licence stage (learner, restricted and full) of the graduated licensing process. Pre-licensed driving experience, car/motorcycle use both on and off road, demographic and behavioural data were obtained at the learner licence interview. Car driving exposure data was obtained at restricted and full licence interviews. Crash data sources were police traffic crash reports and self-reports.

Results
Using multivariate logistic regression, after controlling for potential confounders (driving exposure, gender, residential location, alcohol, cannabis, herbal high use, impulsivity, sensation seeking, aggression/hostility), off road motorcycle use (OR=1.9) was the only pre-licensed driving behaviour associated with crash risk

Contribution to the Field
Overall, pre-licensed driving experience did not affect crash risk when unsupervised driving was allowed, although off road motorcycling may increase risk.

So, either experience produces negative performance gains or they didn't in fact control all significant confounding factors. Yes?

Like dirt bike riders pre-selecting for higher risk tolerance, for example.

Sorry, I don't know how they got those results but I'm sticking to my empirical observation that enhanced feedback experience produces performance improvements, rather than a decline in performance.

[george formby]

It makes a damned sight more sense to learn both, dunnit?

I'm no statistician but selecting the performance of 15 - 24 year olds on the road based on who has been hooning on the dirt & who has not is an answer looking for a question. What a misleading load of tosh.

Dunnit? Your darn tootin it does.
Absolutely everybody has said that my G/F is riding the wrong bike, a trailie. To tall, to heavy whatever. But. She can ride it anywhere, can stop the bike on any surface, plans ahead & has learned how to really ride it. Body weight, throttle & clutch control etc.
Riding off road has become a big part of making her a better rider. Expecting the future of your road riding career to be bump & slip free is ludicrous.
PPPPPP. As they say in the army.

[R650R]

Kinda related, just seen a worksafe graphic in construction mag, maybe they're logo etc...

Anyway picture a square with four boxes and a centred cross with four arrows poking out side the box.
From topleft clockwise the boxes say: Enforce, Self Directed, Educate, Engage/Commit
And the arrows: Aware, Committed, Unaware, Not Committed.

Seems to be a good way to assess where things need to head

[MrKiwi]

My views on training is you are never too old or never too experienced not to continue to get something out of it, depends on the quality of the training provider though. There is a spectrum. One of the best techniques to learning that I and many others are aware of is the role of a mentor. It is one thing to learn some new skills in training, but another to translate that to your own riding on the road. A mentor can look at your riding and provide valuable feedback.

Pre and post licence training is useful. Pre licence training should in my view be mandatory. Post licence training is desirable and should be readily available at reasonable prices. The availability of affordable training is patchy around the country. In certain circumstances it is arguable that post licence training should also be mandatory, as discussed earlier in this thread.

I'm not sure post licence training should be mandatory for all riders, but encouraging all riders to actively keep up their skills is a good idea. Just my two cents worth...

[swbarnett]

My views on training is you are never too old or never too experienced not to continue to get something out of it

Exactly. Even if it's just the confidence that you're doing it right.

Pre and post licence training is useful.

By far the best way to learn to drive/ride is a combination of both training and experience - train, ride, train, ride etc. etc. Also, lots of miles on the road in a short time can't be underestimated. I learned more during the 2.5months I spent as an Auckland m/c courier than I had in any of the previous two years since getting my license.

I'm not sure post licence training should be mandatory for all riders, but encouraging all riders to actively keep up their skills is a good idea. Just my two cents worth...

My father taught me to drive (car). When I got my license he told me that "now you start to learn". Meaning that, once you get your license you can really get out there and work on what you've been taught. For the first 6months after I got my licesnse I wasn't alowed to drive without one of my parents in the passenger seat. I benifited greatly from their experience.

Of course, when I learned to drive there was no graduated license scheme. I suppose what I'm really tallking about when applied to today is mandatory training before graduating to the next stage of license. And perhaps a refresher 1 year after passing your full.

[george formby]

I was lucky enough to get on the road through the star rider scheme in the UK. The beginning of staged licensing. Having a very capable bike mad parent helped immensely, too. Still does.
I'm trying to repeat my experience with my G/F. I've always been in a cocoon of betterment and now try to pass that on.

The very cheap, good, subsidised courses offered by pro rider are a fantastic start IMHO. Cheap & accessible ongoing training.

More initiatives like this have got to be a good thing. A significant number of road users are genuinely interested in their vehicles & improving their abilities but actual tuition is cost prohibitive.

Subsidised training, rego discounts, insurance discounts etc would appeal to quite a few people and once established would be the smart route for younger road users to get the vehicle of their dreams. And be safe. Also a lot of fun for experienced riders/drivers. Certainly has been for me.

A proactive approach to making people safer.

Most people still won't give a shit, they are already brilliant, but over time the demographic with half a brain or more will see the personal & financial wisdom of investing time & a little cash in being a better, safer road user.
I would like to think so anyway.

[MrKiwi]

Thanks everyone for your feedback, I found it very useful with a number of insightful comments from you. I'm now going to polish up my advocacy position and see if I can get this into several motoring trade publications...

[Pixie]

I hope you mean that this may be their intention, as it certainly isn't a reality.

As one example, NZTA doesn't know how to lay tarseal.

NZTA does know how to lay tar seal.They know all the processes available and choose the cheapest tender.

[MrKiwi]

Two publications so far:

• AutoTalk a couple of weeks back (aimed at the car folk), and upcoming,
• a guest editorial in Bike Rider Magazine...

Good to get some air time...