Attitude Change

[placidfemme]

Stop being silly. It's not an attack it's a debate that may get robust.
I took the approach I've made bold above with two guys who used to frequent this site, reasoning that they needed guidance rather than lectures.

One is dead. Brilliant rider, but balls to the wall everywhere.

One got badly fucked up and has decided not to ride again. This guy was actually really into the idea of mentoring as well, and listened and applied new skills immediately. I probably made him over confident.

Be prepared to accept the cost of making supportive statements to "immortal" young uns. They really do think that it won't happen to them because of their "superior" skills and reflexes. If you aren't prepared to live with guilt and remorse then don't say anything. If you are prepared to perform first aid and ring an ambulance and organise transport for their bikes post accident, then ride with them.

I understand what your saying, and the risk involved in mentoring and the such, but I still think it's a good idea... my skill level isn't good enough right now to mentor anyone... but I could imagine how they would feel, because in a way I do mentor Sam, and if anything heppened to her, I don't know if I'd ride again... but I'd rather be there to help her out then leave her to do it on her own, without any guidance.

I also know what you mean by the "immortal young uns". But a lot of your more experienced riders may or may not know that us "newbies" look up to you... just as an example... look at Bugjuice... all the newbies on the rides talk to him and want to ride with him and learn things off him... and because Bugjuice has a good attitude and is a safe rider... without realising it... he is passing those "good characteristics" on to those newbies who look up to him... and so with the young uns, just being supportive and guiding, they will learn to be safer better riders, just by following by example...

[James Deuce]

I understand what your saying, and the risk involved in mentoring and the such, but I still think it's a good idea...

I don't think you do actually. I don't think you want to hear it.

[Deano]

I was speaking to a biker a few weeks ago and asked how their bike was going, to which they replied "it is not fast enough".

I was gobsmacked - the bike in question is bloody fast and no offence to the person, but I don't think they can ride their current bike well enough, let alone get something faster. Bit of a worry really.

But at the end of the day, it's their choice.

[placidfemme]

I don't think you do actually. I don't think you want to hear it.

Just because you may have had some bad experiences I don't think thats a reason to not mentor people... you don't have to do it yourself, but others can... to be honest I don't really wanna hear it, sad stories of people dying and the such, is something that happens and I do feel for the unfortunate who have been hurt or killed, but that won't stop me from encouraging others to help out and be helped.

[Paul in NZ]

There is no such thing as a bike that is beyond your ability (with the possible exception of a pre twist grip veteran or some sort of steam powered thing)... Just don't ride the damn thing so fast. So the question is, could kill her self just as easily on a 250cc Virago as anything else?

Technical skills are one thing but the key element to survival is still risk assesment. Sadly, to be a good rider you have to be confident that you can manage the bike and sometimes in fact you need to be a little over confident. Most performance bikes (and cars) don't like tentative instruction.

Trouble is, accurate risk assesment comes with experience and youthfull people tend to be hopelessly over optomistic in assesing risk. Just like they don't like being told not to do something....

I found my own way into my own little cul de sac and I'm happy there. My bike suits me because I know myself and I know what would happen if I had twice as much power but to arrive at that point I went through a bit of skin, some $$ and did a lot of reading etc. There are no shortcuts.

If someone asks, I will offer an opinion (as you all know) but really it's up to the individual. You ask for input, you process the info and come to a decision. Simple.

Please don't ask me though, I'm likely to recommend a Guzzi...

[bugjuice]

I also know what you mean by the "immortal young uns". But a lot of your more experienced riders may or may not know that us "newbies" look up to you... just as an example... look at Bugjuice... all the newbies on the rides talk to him and want to ride with him and learn things off him... and because Bugjuice has a good attitude and is a safe rider... without realising it... he is passing those "good characteristics" on to those newbies who look up to him... and so with the young uns, just being supportive and guiding, they will learn to be safer better riders, just by following by example...

oh crap. does that mean people listen to me then..??

all I do is merely regurgitate what other people tell me and pass on what I've learnt myself so far. By the same token, I'm constantly learning myself. When I'm with other more experianced riders of this site and off the site, I'm continually watching them, and asking questions where I think I need to know something else. That gets filed in the long term noggin area (at the expense of porn), and it stays with me. If someone asks me, then I'll know that little bit more.

By no means do I consider myself an expert rider. I just enjoy riding, and enjoy teaching the things I know to others.

One experiance I know first hand, is going from a 250 to a 600. My bike before the 636 was my much loved CBR250RR. It was quick, and I had heaps of fun, and I learnt a shed load of stuff, and could have learnt more. But, I didn't know KB then, and I jumped onto the 636 and proceeded to shit myself for the next 6 months while I got to grips with the bike. I don't regret doing it, and I can't see why others can't, but you have to be ready to move on in power. There's no point thinking you want something bigger, if you can't handle corners and the like. And just cos you have a bigger/quicker bike, by no stretch of the imagination it means you have to use it. It was months before I twisted the throttle hard on the 636. And a cruiser is that - it cruises. Has, what ~30hp or so..?? The CBR has somewhere around ~40. Not a huge increase, but it's design is different, and it is a sprotsbike thru n thru. Not a speed demon by comparison to a 636, but it's faster than a Viagra. But that's going off point.

If you're happy with running the risks involved (and I know a few riders who do already), then it's on your head. May we have many awesome rides out of it. I just want to know that who ever the person in question is, knows the consiquences of what they are about to take on. Cos there's no ear from me when it turns tits up and they rat on about it. I'm always here to help tho, and I will (goes without saying), but don't be bitchin about it

i'm sure i'll edit this or forget something too. this has been written over 30 mins (of interruptions. bloody work), so hope it makes sense

[FROSTY:Me]

PF- Im going to explain my attitude first so you see where Im coming from.
I have burried more freinds than you have had birthdays.A lot of them died by thinking they could ride better than they really could.
Anything I say therefore is with that firmly in my mind.
I would suggest that in the perfect world a lot of newer riders ride extremely well Its when it all turns pear shaped that experience kicks in.
Just in the time have been with KB I've seen newer riders do stuff and end up crashing where I have reacted differently and just kept riding.
On a bigger-therefore faster bike when it goes wrong it goes wrong faster and with much more severe concequences.-by that I mean whilst exploring the bikes capabilities.
Im far from the best rider in the world -(f I was its be "GO FROSTY GO not GO ROSSIE GO")
I wouldnt encourage anone on a 250 to leap onto a 600 untill they had at least the appropriate licence.
Had I been on the ride I would have offered the lady a ride on my lil spada -to give her a taste of what a "fast" 250 is capable of.
I would thugh suggest that its a case of not whats said more HOW its said thats important. Someone with 12 months riding under their belt hasn't got the cred someone with many years riding.

[Mr Skid]

Please don't ask me though, I'm likely to recommend a Guzzi...

And that would be a bad thing?

[Str8 Jacket]

Well, this is quite interesting. Im gonna speak from my own experience. After writing of the GN very few people said much to me about it all. They knew that I knew I was wrong and that what happened happened as a result of being too "cocky". I used to say that the GN was too slow and it probably was however I was bought back to earth with a gigantic THUD when I crashed. I think that age and maturity definately have a factor in these sorts of issues. But when all is said and done I think it comes down to how someone reacts when things go bad. Some people aren't prepared to learn.
The people that did say negative things to me, including my family - they don't matter. At the end of the day I just had to suck it up and put it down to experience. I could have listened to friends and family and not hop on a bike again, but I didn't.
I have been lucky enough to be introduced to this site and as a consequence have met some great people that are more than willing to "mentor" me. I think mentoring is a great idea, but the mentoree (not a word I know) has to want the help and has to be willing to listen!

[James Deuce]

Just because you may have had some bad experiences I don't think thats a reason to not mentor people... you don't have to do it yourself, but others can... to be honest I don't really wanna hear it, sad stories of people dying and the such, is something that happens and I do feel for the unfortunate who have been hurt or killed, but that won't stop me from encouraging others to help out and be helped.

Nope. You didn't take the message I was putting out at all.

I haven't said I have stopped mentoring. I haven't said that you shouldn't do it either. I said don't take it on if you aren't 100% aware of the fact that you WILL fell like you killed someone if it goes wrong. It is more likely to go wrong in the type of case that you are discussing because the type of person we are discussing only learns from their own experiences. One day they will listen to you. Right now they won't and don't think you have anything to add, because they already know it all.

Advice is free. No one places the same value on information or property they received for free, compared to something they earned. It is a rare newbie who takes on training or advice for any reason than accelerating their progress through the licensing process.

[Yokai]

(Inflation)

It seems that the young lady is a reasonable rider. However, being on a restricted and riding outside of that and getting caught is gonna be HUGE for her. I would encourage her to trade up to a sportier 250 (maybe a CBR or something) and possibly get a 600 for track... Then she can learn to handle the 600 at WAY fast speeds on the track and use the 250 on the roads.

There are a lot of 250s that are nice and powerful and
It would also give the added benefit of learning that the road and the track are different places with different riding styles and speeds....

[placidfemme]

I have been lucky enough to be introduced to this site and as a consequence have met some great people that are more than willing to "mentor" me. I think mentoring is a great idea, but the mentoree (not a word I know) has to want the help and has to be willing to listen!

I fully agree with you. The mentoree (you created a new word lol) has to want the help first. And really, most people given the oppertunity to be helped, would accept it. I know that when I first started riding (and when I finally get my bigger bike) if anyone offered to show me the ropes... give me tips, and practical experience I wouldn't be turning it down...

But the main topic of the thread, wasn't meant to be soley about this person and her father. It was just an example of "we know better, do as I say" kind of attitude as opposed to a "ok we'll help" scenario.

A lot people as mentioned choose to ride bigger bikes while restricted, and even more go the full way, get the full license and then upgrade... but just because they've been riding long enough to jump through all the legal hoops... doesn't nessesarily (sp) mean they can handle the bigger bike... generally speaking...

I just think sometimes that we (people in general) believe we know it all, and in good intentions (sometimes) say things to try to help people do or make the right decisons, but sometimes we need to take a step back and think of a better way to make better riders instead of bullying (I know bullying wasn't happening in this instance... but you know what I mean) people into what we believe is correct...

[James Deuce]

You can't help people if they don't ask for it.

[Beemer]

I would be the last person in the world qualified to offer advice, but I'd like to share my experience when I began riding. I got my learner's licence and then went shopping for a bike. I knew no one with a bike, nor had I become involved with WIMA at that stage. I went into WMCC and a salesman (who shall remain nameless, but hasn't worked there for a long time now) convinced me the RG150 was perfect. I put a deposit on it without even so much as sitting on it - he never offered to wheel it out from the crush of bikes it was trapped in and I was too embarrassed to ask - and of course I had only just learned the basics so was too scared to take it for a test ride. They delivered it and then I found I could only just touch the ground with tiptoes! I was petrified, but really wanted to learn to ride, so I would wheel it out to the gate (I thought you were a wussy if you got on while it was on the side stand!), swing my leg over and putter off around the block. I fell off the very first time and the bike sat in the garage for weeks after that, until I met Alan Kirk. He came into work and saw the photo of my bike on the wall by my desk. He said "nice bike, is it yours?" and we got talking. I confessed I was scared of riding it, so he and a friend would come out to my place every weekend and take me out for riding lessons. He said I had two choices, learn to handle the bike or have an expensive garage ornament! My confidence was slowly increasing so he told me to join WIMA. That was the second stroke of luck, they were all so helpful (Lynne and Andrew Templeton had a lot to do with the Wellington branch at that time) and gave me some options, such as selling the RG and buying a GN, or going back to WMCC to see if the bike could be adjusted to suit my height (or lack of!). I did that and initially spoke to Steve Dundon, who told me that there were some people who just shouldn't be riding! Nice one! I later spoke to Garry Gill who said he would get the bike lowered for a small fee and the difference that made was incredible. All of a sudden I could ride and I was starting to enjoy it!

I had that bike for four years and really felt comfortable on it. It wasn't too powerful for me and I really honed my riding skills on it. I moved up to a 650 but it wasn't the power that scared me, it was the height and weight difference, which is why I am now on the Goose.

It's highly likely this girl doesn't really know what she wants to move up to when she is legally able to, but perhaps she just likes the big sportsbikes. She may ride one and not like it, or she may turn out to be a very good and safe rider on a very powerful bike. At 17 she probably has a lot of confidence (not a bad thing) and the more she is told she can't or shouldn't do something, the more attractive it becomes.

Madboy has made some very good points there, just because she wants a bigger bike, it doesn't mean she wants to ride like a racer. She may just like the power, the handling, the look - all sorts of things attract us to different bikes and just because we may never have the skills to ride it to its limit, should we never buy more powerful bikes? I have a Nikon F5 camera, it's a real professional model that has many features I've never used in the seven years I've had it - but I bought it because it was one of the most rugged cameras on the market and it has never let me down. Sure, a cheaper camera may do all I need, but the F5 can cope with dusty rally roads without jamming - perhaps this girl wants the motorcycle equivalent?

[Ixion]

What Mr Frosty says.

Most riders, after 6 months on a 250 (maybe even less) can RIDE a 600 OK . Incidentally, I guess that when you're all saying 600 you mean a race replica. Something like a kawasaki W650 or an 800cc crusier is another matter altogether.

BUT - it's not riding happily along all sweet that's the test. It's when it all goes lavender, and you don't have the experience of something similar ALMOST happening in the past.

Yeah, I know, "I just won't twist the throttle too much".

But it's not just about straight line speed. In reality , on a straight road, even a learner can probably do 250kph reasonably safely.

Consider an example. On a 250 (except maybe a two smoker), you can bang the throttle wide open as you exit a corner. No problems.

On a 600RRZXR race replica, you can do that too."Oh this riding a 600 is dead easy" .Until one day you hit a bumpy bit on the exit. And the bike's already way front end light cos of all that power. And the front starts to shake. Oops, we're heading to tank slapper land here folks.

How many of the people saying "Oh I can handle a 600" have had the experience of riding out a tank slapper ? Or for that matter having the rear wheel step out badly mid corner? Or having the whole beast get airborne coming over a hill crest ? Heading towards a corner - can't turn in midair (as I discovered years ago!). Or even just the ubiquitous gravel in mid corner.

On a 250 even a GXRRR , you don't get that sort of thing happening (or it's very rare , anyway). On a 400 it may get a bit twitchy. But not too bad and the rider can probably deal with it. And afterwards think "oo--eer that felt a bit nasty - maybe I better be a bit careful how I xxxx". So when they move up to a 600 or 1000 - they've had some experience of "near nasty". And learnt what works when it gets scarey , and what doesn't

Nothing but time in the saddle can bring you that . And a mentor doesn't help too much , cos it's not the sort of stuff that happens .Most of the "mentor" stuff I see talked about is really just "I'd like someone to show me how to go faster". Which isn't really the right approach IMHO.

Of course, there will be people who jump on a 600RR as a first bike, and don't ever get into trouble. Maybe they're lucky, maybe they're naturals. Comes down to how dangerously you want to live.

Experience is not measured in how many k you've ridden . Or how fast you've gone. It's measured in the number of stains on your underwear.

Difference between a novice on a 250 and a novice on a 600 is the 250 rider the stains are brown and wash out. The 600 rider, the stains aren't brown they're red , and the morgue attendant burns the underwear.

Until you've got the underwear proof that you've "been there, done that" , then I humbly suggest that it's not time to move up. Every poor sod of a rider who the cops scrape off the road thought he or she could handle it.

Granted , I'm not highly hung up on the "it's the law" bit, or some magical number of months. It really is down to experience. Once a rider can say , Yes I've had this happen, and that , and learnt to deal with them" , then they're ready for a bigger bike.

Personally, after 40 years , I will probably never own a 1000 race replica, because I don't think I will ever be ready for it. I can scare myself silly with 50 bhp, I don't like to think what the same experience packing 150bhp would be like. Other people can handle it. The proof is on their underwear.