Attitude Change

[Motu]

There is very much a ''Holier Than Thou'' attitude on this site,sad to see it extend to real life.....but I guess people feel a need to put forward their new found experiance and ''tell'' others how to run their life.They should sort their own act out first.

[The Stranger:Me]

Ok wasn't going to get involved here but I can't leave PF to do all the work, though obviously doing a sterling job.

Sure the pupil must be ready or the teacher will not appear.
Sometimes people are too shy to ask and/or it may not even have occurred as an option (speaking generally here) so an offer can not hurt.
LB has made an offer (different thread) which will probably be accepted.

[The Stranger:Me]

Nope. You didn't take the message I was putting out at all.

I haven't said I have stopped mentoring. I haven't said that you shouldn't do it either. I said don't take it on if you aren't 100% aware of the fact that you WILL fell like you killed someone if it goes wrong. It is more likely to go wrong in the type of case that you are discussing because the type of person we are discussing only learns from their own experiences. One day they will listen to you. Right now they won't and don't think you have anything to add, because they already know it all.

Advice is free. No one places the same value on information or property they received for free, compared to something they earned. It is a rare newbie who takes on training or advice for any reason than accelerating their progress through the licensing process.

I accept that you have had way more experience in mentoring young riders than I and am truely terribly sorry for the losses. I feel though that if you read PF's preious posts you will realise that she has, as I can assure you I have, considered the ramifications of a charge being injured, or worse. The toll would be horrendous.

But please do not judge people you don't know. The young woman in question is very capable of learning from others and knows damn well she does not know it all.
She has both studied and undertaken training despite the fact that it will not accelerate her progress to full license. She is also active in BRONZ and assists with the Ride Right Ride Safe riding courses.

[NC]

People listen to advise, most don't take it.

You can talk to you're blue in the face, but only a smurf will be interested.

[James Deuce]

I accept that you have had way more experience in mentoring young riders than I and am truely terribly sorry for the losses. I feel though that if you read PF's preious posts you will realise that she has, as I can assure you I have, considered the ramifications of a charge being injured, or worse. The toll would be horrendous.

But please do not judge people you don't know. The young woman in question is very capable of learning from others and knows damn well she does not know it all.
She has both studied and undertaken training despite the fact that it will not accelerate her progress to full license. She is also active in BRONZ and assists with the Ride Right Ride Safe riding courses.

YOu could saved a lot of typing and just said, "Get Fucked".

I haven't met a 17 year old that I would trust to transport an empty paper cup from one side of a room to another without getting distracted, deciding that it would be better to construct an anti-gravity mobility/lifting device to move the cup, manipulating a memeber of the opposite sex to move the cup or telling me to move the cup myself. Rudely.

I would be thrilled if the person in question proved me wrong, but she would be an exception to a very ancient rule. An exception does not a trend make. I make no apologies for generalising in this case, and I am firmly of the opinion that Women should be allowed to go for their license at 18 and Men at 20. But only if the men manage to pass a small writtent test that proves they are capable of feeling empathy for at least one other person.

I read Placidfemme's posts and all I got out of it was that the "Holier than thou" attitude is getting a bit annoying. I agree. It is. We need to encourage not discourage, but as I've said, you can't help people who don't ask for it.

[The Stranger:Me]

YOu could saved a lot of typing and just said, "Get Fucked".

I haven't met a 17 year old that I would trust to transport an empty paper cup from one side of a room to another without getting distracted, deciding that it would be better to construct an anti-gravity mobility/lifting device to move the cup, manipulating a memeber of the opposite sex to move the cup or telling me to move the cup myself. Rudely.

I would be thrilled if the person in question proved me wrong, but she would be an exception to a very ancient rule. An exception does not a trend make. I make no apologies for generalising in this case, and I am firmly of the opinion that Women should be allowed to go for their license at 18 and Men at 20. But only if the men manage to pass a small writtent test that proves they are capable of feeling empathy for at least one other person.

I read Placidfemme's posts and all I got out of it was that the "Holier than thou" attitude is getting a bit annoying. I agree. It is. We need to encourage not discourage, but as I've said, you can't help people who don't ask for it.

No Jim2, I consider I am polite and I genuinely do respect the opinions of others so the "Get Fucked" approach would not work for me.

But I feel it is a clue as to why the 17yr olds don't like taking your paper cups across the room for you.

[TwoSeven]

From my view, its really not about the person and their capabilities, that can all be learned -its more about the emotional stuff that goes on.

Any parent or best mate will tell you about the feeling they get when someone they care about decides to do something that contains a modicum of danger. Its usually followed by an attempt to talk them out of it - followed by acceptance (usually after the person ignores them and goes ahead with it anyhow).

While I grew up with motorcycles from an early age, I can certainly say what went thu my mind everytime someone I knew decided to start riding bikes or get a bigger one - personally I wish they wouldnt. But at the end of the day with a bit of coaching and a good peer group, they've all pretty much survived so far.

I think once they get thru the silly crashing stage (overconfidence and pretence of skill), most people become fairly good riders over time.

I didnt get any negative feedback from my parents on bike riding, but I sure did when I started throwing myself out of airplanes. Now, many years later I dont think it bothers them what I do.

[FROSTY:Me]

I can assure you I have, considered the ramifications of a charge being injured, or worse. The toll would be horrendous.

Can--Im sorry dude its one of those situations where "ya gotta have been there" Nothing prepares you for someone in your charge ending up dead.
Imagination cant even begin to cover the incredible feeling of guilt. The -it should have been me-and all the other issues.
Its been 15 years now and I still havent recovered.
Gosh darn it I sound like an old fart--hate that.
I know we can't save em from themselves--Im a realist---but ILL be fucked if Im gonna encourage em to do something Im not comfortable with.

[mstriumph]

he would have been right had it been me --- i'm currently newly on a bike much different to what i have been used to riding --- the power, the response, the balance, the c of g ..... she's faaaaaaar more bike than i am rider and probably will be for some considerable time. The last two rides [my first two on her] i have deliberately sought out more experienced riders on similar bikes to follow, to get a 'feel' for what they are doing more competently than i am .... [and to be able to see what they are doing that i should best avoid]

but that's now

did i do that when i was a newish rider? [admittedly younger than 17 ..] - did i hell ..... ok, i survived ....... but it was luck, not judgement.

The girl can and will do what she can afford to do and none of you can stop her - but i think that, since what she appears to want [irresepective of her level of skill] is both against the law and would invalidate her insurance , it would be highly irresponsible for anyone to pretend it was a valid adult choice and/or encourage her.

No Jim2, I consider I am polite and I genuinely do respect the opinions of others so the "Get Fucked" approach would not work for me.

But I feel it is a clue as to why the 17yr olds don't like taking your paper cups across the room for you.

[James Deuce]

No Jim2, I consider I am polite and I genuinely do respect the opinions of others so the "Get Fucked" approach would not work for me.

But I feel it is a clue as to why the 17yr olds don't like taking your paper cups across the room for you.

I'd just like to point out that this is an Internet forum, and taking things too seriously goes with the territory. I think you're reading things into stuff I've said that aren't there.

I don't use smilies to make points so I'm used to wearing the results.

Ride safe but have fun.

[Big Dave]

Shame I was at the races - i would have made her a demo ride appointment.

My mum never wanted me to have an 1100 either - but if one kills me - I'll die fulfilled.

[froggyfrenchman]

youre quite right. i often have to remind myself of this

[White trash]

I see where you're coming from PF and agree. Rather than making this person feel welcome to our clicky little group of bikers, by everyone jumping on the "my advice is..." band wagon at once, we've alienated a young rider and a potentialy valuable member of our site.

I gave up riding with my dad and his mates at a VERY early stage as they were always telling me what I should be doing and how to ride. I went out and bought an almost new RGV250 after they all tried to tell me they knew best. I stepped straight from the RGV to a 98 GSXR750 and they still tried to tell me I didn't know what I was doing. Six months after I'd hurt myself as much as you can without losing a limb, I still thought they were a bunch of wankers.

Not actually sure what I'm trying to say but I think it's this. If someone doesn't ask for advice, don't give it.

Incidently, the only time my old man has seen me ride since teaching me, is when he videoed my very first race meeting, which I convincingly won all three races from the back of the grid. Riding a 750, still on a learner licence. Funnily enough, I only get encouragement from him now.

[placidfemme]

I'm glad that for once I managed to work my issue correctly and didn't confuse a lot of people...

All I did when Sam gave me all the details, was put myself in her shoes and thought "well if that was me... I would've told them all where to shove it and never ride with them again" and as White trash said "Rather than making this person feel welcome to our clicky little group of bikers, by everyone jumping on the "my advice is..." band wagon at once, we've alienated a young rider and a potentialy valuable member of our site."

Something like this case, sure doesn't seem right, due to age and experience, but I think a better approach could have been used.

I just hope that we havn't put off this particular rider from riding with us.

[White trash]

Yeah! You "advice givers" shoulda been showing the young lass how to pop a phat mono.

Sheeeeesh, what the hell is wrong with some people.....