What say you - review of motorcycle licences

[BlackSheepLogic]

Inexperience is an issue. Age too. Riders new to bikes, regardless of age, don't have the experience that experience brings.

Young and inexperienced is a big issue.

Repeated intermittent testing (every 10 years) wan't catch or fix that. It's not hard to get to a level sufficient to pass a basic handling/riding test, little experience will be gained by it.

What will happen is that this will become an expensive test though a approved school or a very long wait for a cheaper gov test. Probably a good half day or more time investment as well.

[Paul in NZ]

The one thing a regular retest wont measure is attitude. Some folks have all the skills in the world but because they get all antsy on the road tend to be a danger to themselves and others…

I attended a rider training day a while back on my 1970 TR6C and my mate went on his 1951 6T.

The dynamics of the bikes that day were just so different. The emergency stopping was a hoot as both our old bikes have really effective rear brakes. The tester was a bit amazed that we could stop so effectively with just the rear… Sort of ruined the message he was trying to get across LOL…

Doing the cone things easier on these bikes too… I’d feckin hate to do it on the 1050 ST which is a top heavy tall in the seat lump…

Thing is – I ride the TR6C way more than I do the ST and I have owned it a LOT longer. So when I do ride the ST I tend to treat every ride as a test ride and am uber cautious… I’m not sure a retest is going to pick up on that. If I was being retested I’d take the TR6C but really would that qualify me for the ST? Maybe not…

[caspernz]

The one thing a regular retest wont measure is attitude. Some folks have all the skills in the world but because they get all antsy on the road tend to be a danger to themselves and others…

Attitude is 90% of the problem I'd venture, as much as 80 clicks in the fast lane is a problem, the one who undertakes at 140 clicks and weaves thru traffic is just as bad.

Perhaps the biggest issue in this debate is getting the "average" motorist to see their skill set could use a refresher from time to time.

[swbarnett]

ABS on a bike is a no-brainer, for its value is in the surprise situation, whether this be a panic stop or a sudden surface change. Now that I've got a bike with ABS, regardless of my many years and distance covered on two wheels...wouldn't buy a bike without ABS now.

Which just goes to prove my point. Unless someone can point me to the study, there seems to be no imperical evidence that ABS actually works in real world situations.

Having never ridden a bike with ABS I can't say either way. However, from the description of how it works there seems to be some evidence that I have actually achieved this manually.

I really question whether the benifit (if any) outweighs the cost.

[caspernz]

Which just goes to prove my point. Unless someone can point me to the study, there seems to be no imperical evidence that ABS actually works in real world situations.

Having never ridden a bike with ABS I can't say either way. However, from the description of how it works there seems to be some evidence that I have actually achieved this manually.

I really question whether the benifit (if any) outweighs the cost.

Fair call. And once upon a time I was just as doubtful of the benefit as yourself. Maybe your admission that you've never ridden a bike with ABS under varied conditions is the key here?

Having moved from non-ABS to ABS modes of transport in car/truck/bike I'd go as far as to suggest the bike is the one which offers the most benefit to the operator, for keeping them wheels turning is paramount to avoiding hospital food. When I suggest having an ABS bike is a no-brainer it's supremely simple, under perfect conditions a good rider can do better than ABS, but in the real world...nope. Personal experience merely backs up the anecdotal evidence offered by various means. No in-depth study required for me.

Adapting the riding style to correctly utilise ABS is critical though. Bit like the change in braking methods required in car/truck when moving from non-ABS to ABS equipped gear. Expert cadence braking is well beyond todays' average motorist, wouldn't you think?

[MrKiwi]

Was that conclusion adjusted for KM traveled? (was there a difference?)

No. Sadly. Quite hard to get that information.

[Big Dog]

If ABS id suboptimal on gravel (several pages back this was suggested) is ABS valid on our roads?
Most days I don't encounter gravel, but my last two emergency braking procedures IRL were in either roadworks deep gravel or gravel scree.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[BlackSheepLogic]

Which just goes to prove my point. Unless someone can point me to the study, there seems to be no imperical evidence that ABS actually works in real world situations. Having never ridden a bike with ABS I can't say either way. However, from the description of how it works there seems to be some evidence that I have actually achieved this manually. I really question whether the benifit (if any) outweighs the cost.

From what I've read, a really good rider with traditional non-ABS brakes will stop in a shorter distance. However, under a true emergency braking situation where a rider snatched at the brake it's probably a good option to have.

[p.dath]

ABS is not a pro-active technology. It is re-active. It kicks in after the wheel has locked (or is on the verge of locking).

So a really good rider will never notice it, even in an emergency. You should only notice if you over cook the braking, and cause a wheel to lock up. I have no objections to ABS, and I suspect Europe will move to mandate it, so eventually you will have no choice in the matter - all bikes will be made to ship with it (like cars).

It shouldn't mater too much weather it is gravel or tar seal. In either case once the rotational speed of the wheel hits zero (which is what ABS measures to determine a lock up) the brake will be momentarily released. Often a feedback pumping is sent back to the brake leaver to let the rider know that ABS has intervened (model dependent).

I have seen examples of motorcycle ABS performing poorly on cold tyres - increasing the stopping distance compared to not using ABS. I suspect this might have something to do with cold tyres heating rapidly under heaving braking, and suddenly gaining a lot more traction during the braking manoeuvre than what they had at the beginning of the manoeuvre. In this case relying on only the rotational speed of the tyre may not be accurate enough.

ABS on bikes can get a tad more complex though as many designs also incorporate inter-linked braking, so the front and rear brake work in unison to some degree.

[_Shrek_]

My thoughts exactly.

I think everyone should have to sit a test to renew their licenses, regardless of class. That'd learn 'em.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

but who is going to pay for it? would that be a written or practical?
I for one have all my classes & if I have to sit a test to renew them... it's going to take a day or two then I loose $$$ coz I can't work, then the gubberment will say but some one has to pay for the shinny bum who doesn't know shit about bikes diggers trucks etc... to take said test & if you piss them off or a bit of extra revenue is needed "We Fail"

rant over carry on

[willytheekid]

Its ok...change is coming

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news...after-16-years

Nothing to worry about here!...Im sure they will be JUST as competant as they are with WOF checks!



VTNZ issued WOF = get a REAL mechanic to check it....quickly!!

[MrKiwi]

If ABS id suboptimal on gravel (several pages back this was suggested) is ABS valid on our roads?
Most days I don't encounter gravel, but my last two emergency braking procedures IRL were in either roadworks deep gravel or gravel scree.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

There is quite a bit of research on the benefits of ABS on motorcycles coming from overseas. ABS is best suited to tarmac, marginal on gravel. The research indicates significant benefits from ABS, reducing both the severity and and number of accidents on tar seal roads. Much of the research is reporting up to 30-40% reductions in severity of injuries and number of fatalities.

Earlier this year I test rode a KTM 1190 for 3 months, including a week long ride around the South Island in both dry and wet conditions. ABS will not cut in when breaking unless the bike detects front wheel slippage. The other feature the KTM 1190 has is variable electronic stability control (yeah I didn't know what this meant either until I picked up the bike from KTM.) The advantage of this system is it alters the algorithm for ABS and traction control depending on the lean angle of the bike. It's a neat system. The bike was very sure footed.

[p.dath]

I just had a read about the issue with ABS and gravel/snow. It seems that allowing the wheel(s) to lock in gravel or snow causes them to dive into the surrounding material and with the tyres semi-submerged they slow the motorbike/vehicle down more.

As ABS tries to prevent wheel locking the tyre remains on the surface of the gravel/snow, and hence takes longer to stop.

I can't see how ABS could easily detect that the tyre is on a surface that it can dive into. It would really need some kind of manual control to indicate you are going "off-road" or riding on a "soft surface". Perhaps some kind of sensor on the forks that can detect the loss of compressibility might do the trick. Sounds hellishly complicated.

[Gremlin]

I just had a read about the issue with ABS and gravel/snow. It seems that allowing the wheel(s) to lock in gravel or snow causes them to dive into the surrounding material and with the tyres semi-submerged they slow the motorbike/vehicle down more.

As ABS tries to prevent wheel locking the tyre remains on the surface of the gravel/snow, and hence takes longer to stop.

I can't see how ABS could easily detect that the tyre is on a surface that it can dive into. It would really need some kind of manual control to indicate you are going "off-road" or riding on a "soft surface". Perhaps some kind of sensor on the forks that can detect the loss of compressibility might do the trick. Sounds hellishly complicated.

It's precisely why making it mandatory and non-switchable on adventure bikes is stupid.

What you want on gravel, is to lock the wheel. The sliding builds up loose material in front of the tyre and this is what slows you down. As above, the KTM 1190 has different modes, including one where ABS works on the front wheel, but is disabled for the rear, allowing you to lock and slide it.

[swbarnett]

Fair call. And once upon a time I was just as doubtful of the benefit as yourself. Maybe your admission that you've never ridden a bike with ABS under varied conditions is the key here?

Yeah, I would definitely be keen to do my own experiments with ABS but I'm not lilely to have it on a bike in the foreseable future. Or indeed two of the same bike with and without.

Having moved from non-ABS to ABS modes of transport in car/truck/bike I'd go as far as to suggest the bike is the one which offers the most benefit to the operator, for keeping them wheels turning is paramount to avoiding hospital food. When I suggest having an ABS bike is a no-brainer it's supremely simple, under perfect conditions a good rider can do better than ABS, but in the real world...nope. Personal experience merely backs up the anecdotal evidence offered by various means. No in-depth study required for me.

The thing is that moving from non-ABS to ABS isn't the only variable. Presumeably you didn't move from non-ABS to the same bike with ABS?

Expert cadence braking is well beyond todays' average motorist, wouldn't you think?

I would totally agree with this. I am of the opinion that ABS is probably of use at least to some. Like anything of this nature my only real concern is that, without real proof of its efficacy, it either becomes mandatory or you can't buy a bike without it. This results in artificially inflated prices for those of us that would perhaps opt out by choice.