Don't lend your bike, car, skateboard, etc.

[Lou Girardin]

Police have charged a Hawera man with manslaughter after a 4 year old girl driving his quad rolled it and was killed.
Manslaughter?

[bugjuice]

responsibility/in charge of a minor. Altho I can't see how it's manslaughter really
sad tho

[madboy]

Manslaughter is unintentionally causing someones death. So if he did (I dont' know the facts) then it's manslaughter like it or not.

Generally speaking (I'll say again - I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS THAT APPLY TO THIS SITUATION) putting a 4yo in charge of a quad is a big call - that's a lot of responsibility to be putting on someone so young and immature. I look at Frosty's little one tearing around the pits at events and he's fine. He knows what to do and what not to. I imagine on a quad he'd be fine. My little one, same age, has never seen a pit in her life, and would freak out and probably end up getting hurt. She's not going near a quad in a hurry. Comes down to the individual kid I guess.

All said and done, my heart goes out to the guy and family members. The death is a terrible thing to start with, and criminal charges is like twisting the knife. But it's the adults job to protect the children.

[sels1]

But it's the adults job to protect the children.

Absolutely right. Adults have to take responsibility for their actions, or lack of them.

[Ixion]

'Tis a matter of supervision. Applies to kids (indeed, even to untrained adults) in all situations.

Technically the manslaughter bit will relate to negligence. Leaving a child in a potentially dangerous situation and failing to supervise/watch over the kid is negligent. If someone dies as a result of your negligence, that's manslaughter. Bit of a tough call in this case I wuld have thought though. Still, not knowing the details, can't comment

[Wolf]

Didn't we use to have a "Criminal Negligence" charge? Not 100% sure how it was used - IANAL, after all - but I think it was for anything where harm was done through the failure of a person to take due care.

From a layman's viewpoint, I would think he was more negligent in not ensuring the child was safe (inaction) than guilty of manslaughter - which I perceive to be more action-focused (doing something careless and causing death, like accidentally running over someone with a vehicle).

e.g. I would expect a manslaughter charge if I shot someone through failing to consider the bullet may miss my intended target and hit someone on the other side of the bushes; but I would expect "Criminal Negligence" if someone picked up a loaded firearm I had carelessly left lying around and accidentally shot themselves.

Can someone clarify?

[Lou Girardin]

I don't recall manslaughter charges being laid after car/house fires where kids were killed.

[bungbung]

I don't recall manslaughter charges being laid after car/house fires where kids were killed.

You wouldn't consider it likely that your house might catch fire.

You could consider it likely that a 4 year old would crash a quad.

[Ixion]

Didn't we use to have a "Criminal Negligence" charge? Not 100% sure how it was used - IANAL, after all - but I think it was for anything where harm was done through the failure of a person to take due care.

From a layman's viewpoint, I would think he was more negligent in not ensuring the child was safe (inaction) than guilty of manslaughter - which I perceive to be more action-focused (doing something careless and causing death, like accidentally running over someone with a vehicle).

e.g. I would expect a manslaughter charge if I shot someone through failing to consider the bullet may miss my intended target and hit someone on the other side of the bushes; but I would expect "Criminal Negligence" if someone picked up a loaded firearm I had carelessly left lying around and accidentally shot themselves.

Can someone clarify?

From the Crimes Act 1961

CRIMES ACT 1961
PART 8 - CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON
Homicide
160. Culpable homicide—
Popup window showing references for this document

160.Culpable homicide—




(1)Homicide may be either culpable or not culpable.


(2)Homicide is culpable when it consists in the killing of any person—


(a)By an unlawful act; or


(b)By an omission without lawful excuse to perform or observe any legal duty; or


(c)By both combined; or


(d)By causing that person by threats or fear of violence, or by deception, to do an act which causes his death; or


(e)By wilfully frightening a child under the age of 16 years or a sick person.


(3)Except as provided in section 178 of this Act, culpable homicide is either murder or manslaughter.


(4)Homicide that is not culpable is not an offence.

And the person in charge of a child or infant has a legal duty to care for it and take reasonable steps to shield it from danger. So if he fails to do so that is culpable homicide. Since there is no intent (no malice aforethought) it can't be murder - therefore must be homicide.

But, IANAL

[Beemer]

While I have great sympathy for the guy - it was apparently his daughter who was killed - leaving a four year-old unattended anywhere near a 300cc quad - note, it was not a kid's quad bike - is irresponsible. I think the charge is a little unusual, but perhaps a cop could help us out by explaining the options open to them regarding charges.

I think the police have to be seen as not condoning this kind of accident so they have to charge him to set a precedent and ensure this doesn't happen again - bit like swimming pool fencing.

I am not interested in the gory details, but how a kid that age could even get a quad moving is beyond me - they're big and they're heavy. Perhaps the father had left it running and she climbed on and took off - who knows.

[FROSTY:Me]

This has ramifications right through our sport.
An example --I'm racing with another guy at say taupo.
Im behind him and think I see a gap up the inside --As Im alongside he sees me freaks out and runs wide -crashes cand dies.
Am I responsible for his death??
Or is the organiser responsible?
Given the two recent examples could I be prosecutted for dangerous driving causing death??
Yea we sighn waivers and indemneties but thats only against the families--doesn't leave any mention of police prosecution.
Yea its rediculous -but it does seem to be the way were heading

OHH and on the Baby Bikie on Quad thing.
In the pits he really is sensible and on his quad hes well aware of danger.
Hes had all his short life to learn whats safe and whats not. I genuinely believe he is safer in the pits than some adults.
BUT if EVER any of you see him doing something dangerous when Im not watching. I will thank you profusely if ya kick his ass for me . Yes MY son DADS eyes are everywhere

[Keystone19]

This has ramifications right through our sport.
An example --I'm racing with another guy at say taupo.
Im behind him and think I see a gap up the inside --As Im alongside he sees me freaks out and runs wide -crashes cand dies.
Am I responsible for his death??
Or is the organiser responsible?
Given the two recent examples could I be prosecutted for dangerous driving causing death??
Yea we sighn waivers and indemneties but thats only against the families--doesn't leave any mention of police prosecution.
Yea its rediculous -but it does seem to be the way were heading

There was an example earlier in the year when a woman organising the Christchurch to Akaroa bicycle race was charged with homicide following the death of a participant who crossed the centre line into on-coming traffic.

This has had major ramifications for all subsequent events of this nature (adventure racing, multisport etc) and resulted in the cancellation of many smaller events, hugely increased entry fees for those that remain, and, of course, the signing of indemnity waivers for participants.

Having said that, safety standards have increased ten-fold at all the events I have participated in since this time. With some overkill occasionally.

[FROSTY:Me]

While I have great sympathy for the guy - it was apparently his daughter who was killed - leaving a four year-old unattended anywhere near a 300cc quad - note, it was not a kid's quad bike - is irresponsible. I think the charge is a little unusual, but perhaps a cop could help us out by explaining the options open to them regarding charges.

I think the police have to be seen as not condoning this kind of accident so they have to charge him to set a precedent and ensure this doesn't happen again - bit like swimming pool fencing.

I am not interested in the gory details, but how a kid that age could even get a quad moving is beyond me - they're big and they're heavy. Perhaps the father had left it running and she climbed on and took off - who knows.

a big quad is easier to get started than a kids quad.
the ignition cut out is usually in the park brake -so the kid turns it on and hits the button -
If the lil lady was anything like Baby bikie shes probably ridden a quad on her dads lap for years
Keep in mind too folks --Unless you are a parent you have no idea how fast a determined 4 year old can move -You could start hunting for em 20 seconds after theyre outa your sight--barely time for a pee --and they could be heading off in a direction you wouldn't imagine.
Baby bikie at 4 decided to WALK the 2.5 km to my place from his mothers place. he was in a fully fenced yard and she had gone inside for a moment---Time enough for him to climb the fence and start walking to my place.

[Keystone19]

Keep in mind too folks --Unless you are a parent you have no idea how fast a determined 4 year old can move -You could start hunting for em 20 seconds after theyre outa your sight--barely time for a pee --and they could be heading off in a direction you wouldn't imagine. .

That is so true. By the time my boy was four, he could start our jeep and put it in gear. He spends a heap of time around our workshop so knows what he should and shouldn't do around cars, but you do need eyes in the back of your head at all times. They move damn fast.

I really feel for that family. An absolute tragedy.

[Ixion]

This has ramifications right through our sport.
An example --I'm racing with another guy at say taupo.
Im behind him and think I see a gap up the inside --As Im alongside he sees me freaks out and runs wide -crashes cand dies.
Am I responsible for his death??
Or is the organiser responsible?
Given the two recent examples could I be prosecutted for dangerous driving causing death??
Yea we sighn waivers and indemneties but thats only against the families--doesn't leave any mention of police prosecution.
Yea its rediculous -but it does seem to be the way were heading

OHH and on the Baby Bikie on Quad thing.
In the pits he really is sensible and on his quad hes well aware of danger.
Hes had all his short life to learn whats safe and whats not. I genuinely believe he is safer in the pits than some adults.
BUT if EVER any of you see him doing something dangerous when Im not watching. I will thank you profusely if ya kick his ass for me . Yes MY son DADS eyes are everywhere

It's all about REASONABLE care. If your actions are reasonable in the circumstances, and someone still dies, that's not (usually) manslaughter. Just bad luck. So , in the racing example you instance, your actions would usually be regarded as reasonable under the circumstances. The other guy would presumably have had a racing licence, he knows (or ought to) what happens on the track. Different if the track was being used to teach beginner riders, and you decided "stuff them, I'll show the noobs what a real rider can do". In that case a jury might think you were not being reasonable.

It also depends on whether you have any duty of care toward the dead person, and if so, how much. One racer doesn't have much of a duty toward another - just to follow the race rules, and not do something stupid. Racer is considered a big boy, able to look after himself. Person in charge of a child has a far greater duty of care. Children are not good at looking after themselves.

Whether the behaviour was reasonable is a matter for a jury to decide in each case - did the accused take reasonable care or not, given all the circumstances.

Baby Bikie - same thing. Parents have a legal duty to take care of children. But that doesn't mean wrapping them in cotton wool. Question is, given Baby Bikie's understanding, training , experience, is it reasonable.

Difference here between "Well, my kid has ridden that machine many times, I trained and taught him what to do, and I'm just over here keeping an eye on him" on one hand, and "I'm supposed to be looking after this kid, but stuff it,I want to go to the pub. I'll set it playing around on the quad, that'll keep it amused , while I go and have a beer" on the other hand. PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying or implying that the latter scenario is what happened in this tragic case - just putting forward two extreme cases as illustration.

IANAL