More price-gouging in NZ

[bogan]

Whats the difference between paying a markup on a product than getting charged $100per/hr when the guy doing the job only gets $30per/hr?

The difference between getting overpriced stuff installed as quickly as possible, and well priced stuff installed thoroughly?

[Ocean1]

Whats the difference between paying a markup on a product than getting charged $100per/hr when the guy doing the job only gets $30per/hr?

I don't have a problem paying a mark-up. Up to a point.

But when "trade" is 20% of what I have to pay then not only are the public subsidising the trade in general but the price I pay for the labour content is masked by the materials mark-up.

Why shouldn't I be able to shop for the materials and the labour separately, paying the price appropriate for the quality of both, not some fucked up mixture of both where the quality of either is unclear.

[bogan]

Why shouldn't I be able to shop for the materials and the labour separately, paying the price appropriate for the quality of both, not some fucked up mixture of both where the quality of either is unclear.

Liability.

[Ocean1]

Liability.

Liability for who? The respective suppliers?

Pretty much what's required innit? they both need to be responsible for the quality of their product, anything else is bullshit.

[bogan]

Liability for who? The respective suppliers?

Pretty much what's required innit? they both need to be responsible for the quality of their product, anything else is bullshit.

Supplier/installer, if a job goes tits up, who is liable? How easy is it to figure out what is installation fault, and what is product fault?

[Woodman]

Liability for who? The respective suppliers?

Pretty much what's required innit? they both need to be responsible for the quality of their product, anything else is bullshit.

No, If you as a tradesman fit a customer supplied part then you have deemed by your experience/qualifications that the part is fit for purpose. If something goes pearshaped it ends up in a 3 way shitfight and it is generally the installer who ends up liable, which begs the question, why would you warranty something you have not supplied/made any mark up on?

[bsasuper]

There are a lot of people living in huge flash mansions in NZ make of that what you will.You will always buy something overseas cheaper than here, often I can buy 2 or 3 for the price of one here.I just bought a Shorai battery for my bike $100 less than what I was quoted for the same Shorai battery here,(don't get mad ed, I have brought off you in the past) and that was paying a bit extra to have a lithium battery shipped safely.
I did buy a new shoei helmet here in NZ though, as it was only $40 more.

[mossy1200]

But the results of most trade discounting practices is that the trades in question end up pricing their labour at cost. At best. They can afford to do that because they're making 500% on the materials.

The problem I have with that is they're not actually selling their trades skills, which is what I want to hire. They're simply taking advantage of a manipulated market, what they're selling is materials. Fuck all that, I want to pay for their ability to supply trade skills, not the size of their materials budget.

What's more; as a retail hardware buyer I don't expect to be subsidising professionals by paying 4-5 times the price they do.

The only electrical install product that's cost a tradesman 20% of retail would be cable. I don't know an electrician that has charged even close to trade price to sell cable. The public can buy cable from mitre10 etc for a fraction of trade price across the counter.

Electrician to terminate my new garage? Nobody's interested, they don't get the materials mark-up.


I don't mind paying a premium to a top tradesman for a top job. But I'm fucked if I want someone on the job who's primary interest begins and ends at selling me some cheep piece of shit for 4 times the price he paid.

Average domestic and commercial electrical charge out is between $55 and $60 per hour. If you pay someone $30 and add holiday pay, sick leave, public holidays, downtime, bad debts, admin, vehicle costs, insurances there is not much left. When you supply an electrician parts and he installs the parts then gives you a compliance certificate he has certified the parts as being compliant with NZ and Australian standards. Even further now if you buy a non compliant part he has certified that part as being compliant. If you run a cable underground he has certified that cable wasn't damaged and sits more than 450mm down for sub circuits and 600mm down for mains with warning tape and in a suitable soft soil or sand enclosure or within conduit pipe. He is certifying cable he cant see haven't been damaged or incorrectly positioned. Your electrician signs the risk.

Terminate your garage doesn't interest your electrician because its not worth the risk signing it off under his name.

Whats the difference between paying a markup on a product than getting charged $100per/hr when the guy doing the job only gets $30per/hr?

$100 an hour would be nice. Any electrician charges $100 per hour goes under unless he has specialised equipment or skills.
We have a fibre splicer worth $50k and we don't get $100 per hour using it even though we are one of a few that can splice fibre in the area.

I don't have a problem paying a mark-up. Up to a point.

But when "trade" is 20% of what I have to pay then not only are the public subsidising the trade in general but the price I pay for the labour content is masked by the materials mark-up.

Why shouldn't I be able to shop for the materials and the labour separately, paying the price appropriate for the quality of both, not some fucked up mixture of both where the quality of either is unclear.

Electrician will charge $60odd for labour which in a company might equal $12-$15 profit before bad debts and most company prices when the parts value isn't high is trade plus 10%. Cost on a lot of the parts is trade less 20%. Heavily discounted parts like cable is charged well below trade price to match the sales prices of your mitre 10s etc unless its a short length being used.

I cant talk about other trades as they will have their own systems.

Most people have a very poor awareness of how many regulations and how many punishments are involved with certified electrical work.
You may like cut price airlines prices but would you like a half trained airline pilot to save some more money. How about if the a pilot did the landing but a random passenger did the take off and mid-flight while he waited for the chance to complete your journey at the final hour.

Im not claiming its a bad way to make money but its not an extremely easy way.
Many times a small one operator electrician doesn't make it past year one.
Many times a small one operator electrician doesn't survive a main contractor declaring bankrupt at the end of a job and not paying his sub trades.

Even large companies in Wellington have folded in the last 10 years over one underquoted job or a non payment. There is a tendency to undercut your competition that pushes profit margins very low that has done damage to the industry pricing also. Low quotes pushed pressure onto wholesalers to discount below trade which is why there is a huge difference in pricing costs for cable etc. As a customer your not being punished but seeing a huge discount structure with retail being a figure that's irrelevant as its seldom used.

Retail on 2.5mm cable is likely $14 a metre approx (not exact as retails a figure I don't pay a lot of attention). Last time I charged 2.5mm cable it was in the low $3 a metre range.

[mossy1200]

Supplier/installer, if a job goes tits up, who is liable? How easy is it to figure out what is installation fault, and what is product fault?

Electrician supplies electrical certificate has made the product compliant. Fault becomes the electricians if it is not compliant. There is no importer control on what enters NZ as being compliant or not. Signing for it is owning the electrical responsibility.

[Ocean1]

No, If you as a tradesman fit a customer supplied part then you have deemed by your experience/qualifications that the part is fit for purpose. If something goes pearshaped it ends up in a 3 way shitfight and it is generally the installer who ends up liable, which begs the question, why would you warranty something you have not supplied/made any mark up on?

And this tradesman dude, he's got himself covered for professional indemnity? Public liability?

But he's incompetent enough that he also wants to be able to do the job five times before it costs as much as the retailer would charge me?

Who is this masked man? I desperately need to avoid him!

[Ocean1]

The only electrical install product that's cost a tradesman 20% of retail would be cable.

You're not trying hard enough, I get over 80% on some.

And stop it with the inside story, I'm trying to make a point and you're not helping

[mossy1200]

You're not trying hard enough, I get over 80% on some.

And stop it with the inside story, I'm trying to make a point and you're not helping

Should read off trade.

Theres no magic profit in the electrical trade. Most sparkies sell at cost plus x percent or trade plus 10% until the unrealistic trade price margins begin.

[BlackSheepLogic]

Try setting up a small business here:
Price for 30' role of matting approx NZD $2,080. US price USD $390.00 + shipping.

Don't even ask me about the price difference on other equipment I needed. Although the supplier looks like they are making excessive margins, the real issue is the distributer/manufacture not the supplier (at least in my case for the equipment I needed). The supplier was working on a small margin and just passing their acquisition cost along.

Another issue most people are unaware of is the import costs. Unless you are a customs broker you can't just walk into a customs facility to clear and release an item.

The NZ price is eventually passed on to the customer and it's part of the reason getting anything done here costs so much.

[Voltaire]

I was self employed for a few years as a sparkie/air con tech. I had an account at a large electrical supplier who gave me " trade' on cable, that was until I realised I could get the same cable cheaper at Bunnings and then a bloke off Trade Me for General Cable.
Same with PDL isolators, I could get good quality Chint Chinese ones for about a 1/3 of PDL.
I'm amazed Electrical wholesalers still exist, ideal candidate for Amazon type operation.

[MarkH]

I'll certainly buy locally if I can, and I appreciate the convenience in doing so. But if it's significantly cheaper elsewhere, then my wallet comes first.

Same here, I do spend plenty locally for various reasons like wanting to ensure something fits comfortably or because the price really isn't far off what it would cost me to import.
But then there are things that cost $585 here that I can import for a landed cost of $325 - shit mate, how could I justify to myself buying local for that?

I've heard of people buying motorcycle gear from overseas and then going into a local shop and wanting them to sort out a warranty issue with it.

That's easy to explain - some people are fuckwits!

Another issue most people are unaware of is the import costs. Unless you are a customs broker you can't just walk into a customs facility to clear and release an item.

Why not?
A while ago I dealt with customs, to import something expensive I needed to fill out a form and fax it to them, that gave me an import number I could quote.
I don't think I've needed to use that import number since.
I can't even remember when I last had to pay GST - but I do try hard to keep my packages value under the $400.
For more expensive packages that you have to pay GST on, unless things have changed you just need to provide a credit card number so they can charge you the GST and the admin fee.


I have come across some huge cost differences, something that cost $495 locally I was able to get from overseas for $150.
Try buying a new foil for a Braun shaver, I used to get these locally but the pricing & packaging has changed - I can only get the foil with a new cutting block for a huge price locally or really cheap with free international shipping from Ebay. I sorted out a foil for my step-father's shaver which was dearer locally than the shaver (WTF?) but the one from Ebay for NZ$12 (total landed cost) works just fine.

I am pretty sure that 90% of the worst price differences stem from greedy importers, I've seen plenty of pricing here that isn't too far from the overseas cost which makes me think that stuff doesn't need to be all that much dearer here. I'm pretty sure that some importers just charge as much as they think they can get away with even if it means 200% margin or more for them.