You pricks are costing us taxpayers too much money

[rastuscat]

Yeah, I appreciate what you do, and the scope of the Bronze course. I have still found some value in doing the Bronze and Silver courses multiple times with different instructors/attendees in different locations and during both winter/summer though. I've also encountered some more 'experienced' riders who may benefit from some training in lower speed zones, including low speed handling and emergency braking, so aiming the Bronze course soley at newer riders may not be the ideal situation if we want to improve the skills of all NZ riders.

The Gold course also doesn't seem like a raising of the benchmark (description wise) if the Bronze and Silver courses are to go by... the main points of difference to the Silver course (instructor wise) only seems to be things like carrying a pillion, and towing a load. Plus it will still probably still come down to the instructor and skill level of the attendees on the day...

I need/want to do a Gold course though, but have previously assumed I'm too new to riding to do one yet, as I've only just been riding for two years. Will do one soon though once I have some free time.

It's been one of the challenges I've faced in getting into the R4E world. Differentiating between the Bronze, Silver and Gold.

People do a Bronze and often then want to know what different stuff gets covered in the Silver. Some are really motivated to pile courses on top of each other.

There are so many factors. The themes are quite similar, but the choice of course to go on depends on many things.

DX Mail send their staff on a course each year on their work bikes. They get a Bronze Course, regardless of their age/experience/ability. That's because their bikes are not suited to a Gold or Silver course. E.g. a CT110 and a GN125 are not particularly suited to a day out on the open road. I've had DX Mail people who ride private Hayabusas get grumpy at being put on a Bronze Course until I explain to them that they might be suitable for a Gold but their work bike isn't.

Other people who turn up for a Gold course are struggling to do the stuff I'd expect of a beginner
Many wouldn't pass a CBTA test if they took the gamble. People on Gold are normally on capable bikes, full licences with some years of riding behind them. None of which is any guarantee of ability.

Interestingly, if you did a Bronze Course with me then one with one of my workmates, you would take similar themes from each, but learn many different things based on the experience of each instructor. I'm all about road craft, awareness and slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

[skippa1]

I do a wee session on each course

I thought you were talking about a motorcycle riding course you kinky mofo

[nzspokes]

slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

Because many die trying to U turn in the Countdown carpark.

Track is where its at.....

[HenryDorsetCase]

It's been one of the challenges I've faced in getting into the R4E world. Differentiating between the Bronze, Silver and Gold.

People do a Bronze and often then want to know what different stuff gets covered in the Silver. Some are really motivated to pile courses on top of each other.

There are so many factors. The themes are quite similar, but the choice of course to go on depends on many things.

DX Mail send their staff on a course each year on their work bikes. They get a Bronze Course, regardless of their age/experience/ability. That's because their bikes are not suited to a Gold or Silver course. E.g. a CT110 and a GN125 are not particularly suited to a day out on the open road. I've had DX Mail people who ride private Hayabusas get grumpy at being put on a Bronze Course until I explain to them that they might be suitable for a Gold but their work bike isn't.

Other people who turn up for a Gold course are struggling to do the stuff I'd expect of a beginner
Many wouldn't pass a CBTA test if they took the gamble. People on Gold are normally on capable bikes, full licences with some years of riding behind them. None of which is any guarantee of ability.

Interestingly, if you did a Bronze Course with me then one with one of my workmates, you would take similar themes from each, but learn many different things based on the experience of each instructor. I'm all about road craft, awareness and slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

outside peg. yes. lock the leg in.

I did a course with Karel Pavich's crew a while back and there was quite a lot of slow speed "control" stuff. Being one of those useless older riders with terrible habits and a bike too fast for the road, I though "Ah this is fucking stupid, we're at a racetrack, lets get stuck in" MOAR FASTERER.

Actually the cone slalom and fine control was really useful. Plus I felt like a tit applying front brake in a turn and stalling out. Had to very inelegantly put my foot out a few times. I used to practice figure 8s in the wee carpark at work when I was leaving after that.

I also really like the "squeeeeeze gently but then hard" drill for sex. I mean braking. Yeah, braking.

[russd7]

Okay , here's what happened.

A great day out on the road. Beautiful weather, and 6 keen punters. All did well out on the road, despite some having been riding for no more than 4 weeks.

So we get back to the base, and do some warm down exercises. One lad with 6 weeks experience low sides his bike.

I ask him what happened and here is his reply. "When I lean to the left my footpeg tells me when I'm far enough over. I thought my right hand side would be the same"

Trouble is his muffler caught the road before his footpeg did. And low side he did.

Just as well he wasn't using that logic on the Sockburn Roundabout.

hmmm is people falling off their bikes a common thing on your training rides, heard of a young (actually not so young but hey) lady falling off her bike on one of your gold courses back in march, it were her telling me about it, i told her she shouldna been trying to show off.

[PrincessBandit]

...driven more by riders deliberately pushing the envelope than carelessness. I think that their eyes are open and their brains are on, but because of the buzz they are taking it to the edge and sometimes beyond...

....many, if not most of us, are pretty incompetent at figuring out just where the edge is, especially in changing conditions and we tend to make no allowance for that.

Buzz can get in the way if we get too buzzed and not enough zen.

... i told her she shouldna been trying to show off.

Tongue in cheek, I'm sure, but also a serious issue for some.

[rastuscat]

hmmm is people falling off their bikes a common thing on your training rides, heard of a young (actually not so young but hey) lady falling off her bike on one of your gold courses back in march, it were her telling me about it, i told her she shouldna been trying to show off.

I've been at the coal face delivering R4E courses for a year now. In that time I've had maybe 200 clients.

Only 3 have ever come off during the course, and all because they did something silly. Out riding their ability.

Nobody has been the victim of a SMIDSY which is good, as that's what we are teaching people to avoid.

[KezzaCFC]

It's been one of the challenges I've faced in getting into the R4E world. Differentiating between the Bronze, Silver and Gold.

People do a Bronze and often then want to know what different stuff gets covered in the Silver. Some are really motivated to pile courses on top of each other.

There are so many factors. The themes are quite similar, but the choice of course to go on depends on many things.

DX Mail send their staff on a course each year on their work bikes. They get a Bronze Course, regardless of their age/experience/ability. That's because their bikes are not suited to a Gold or Silver course. E.g. a CT110 and a GN125 are not particularly suited to a day out on the open road. I've had DX Mail people who ride private Hayabusas get grumpy at being put on a Bronze Course until I explain to them that they might be suitable for a Gold but their work bike isn't.

Other people who turn up for a Gold course are struggling to do the stuff I'd expect of a beginner
Many wouldn't pass a CBTA test if they took the gamble. People on Gold are normally on capable bikes, full licences with some years of riding behind them. None of which is any guarantee of ability.

Interestingly, if you did a Bronze Course with me then one with one of my workmates, you would take similar themes from each, but learn many different things based on the experience of each instructor. I'm all about road craft, awareness and slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

Just done my CBTA 6R test last tuesday..passed with flying colours. Was a fun ride and a good way to spend the day off work.

Only hopped on a bike with gears 3 or so months ago, got my learners in March, and now restricted in June.
Most of the people on the course had ridden <1000km.

Funnily enough, what i took away from the course I find myself also using when I drive my fucking cage (I think i said that right didn't I?) aswell. From an awareness point of view anyway.

Moving back the mainland soon, might come across yourself on a silver or gold in the summer.

[george formby]

Just done my CBTA 6R test last tuesday..passed with flying colours. Was a fun ride and a good way to spend the day off work.

Only hopped on a bike with gears 3 or so months ago, got my learners in March, and now restricted in June.
Most of the people on the course had ridden <1000km.

Funnily enough, what i took away from the course I find myself also using when I drive my fucking cage (I think i said that right didn't I?) aswell. From an awareness point of view anyway.

Moving back the mainland soon, might come across yourself on a silver or gold in the summer.

Yeah, the basic tenants of road craft apply to cars, too. My Teutonic superior other was adamant she was a good driver having learned and driven in Germany but miraculously her attitude totally changed when she started learning to ride a bike and got some training, private initially. She has now done all 3 R4E courses. Her driving has changed dramatically, too.

Who made that comment about fatal u turns in car parks? If it works at 20kmh, it works at 120kmh. Slow speed handling is the dog's danglies, particularly when you do it quickly.

[Ocean1]

outside peg. yes. lock the leg in.

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

[george formby]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

Funnily enough that is another way of asking the question I did on my gold course. Kind of. The answer given to me, which I endorse wholeheartedly, is to pivot around the tank rather than shift yer weight across the bike.

[rastuscat]

Funnily enough that is another way of asking the question I did on my gold course. Kind of. The answer given to me, which I endorse wholeheartedly, is to pivot around the tank rather than shift yer weight across the bike.

There are a couple of ways to do it, and they only vary depending on how you think about it. Pivoting on the tank is my way too.

It's akin to the two methods of counter steering. Instead of pushing the inside bar forward, I prefer to weight the outside bar backwards. Achieves the same effect, safely.

It's all a matter of achieving the same dynamic in a different way, sometimes the only difference being mindset.

Or where you most recently bought donuts.

[rastuscat]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

There ya go. Glad to help.

[pritch]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

Funny, I was just reading what Mick Doohan had to say about weghting the pegs. GP riders need to do that and we can play with weighting the peg but not too many people would bother when cruising or touring. Oxley said the GP riders would wear holes in the soles of their boot from working the pegs, sometimes in a single race weekend. He wrote that in the two stroke era though and I'm not sure if the big four stokes are quite as fussy.

[george formby]

There are a couple of ways to do it, and they only vary depending on how you think about it. Pivoting on the tank is my way too.

It's akin to the two methods of counter steering. Instead of pushing the inside bar forward, I prefer to weight the outside bar backwards. Achieves the same effect, safely.

It's all a matter of achieving the same dynamic in a different way, sometimes the only difference being mindset.

Or where you most recently bought donuts.

Counter steering with one hand. Great for a laugh and a fine example of the dynamic.
The whole body position and weighting thing came about after a comment on the Silver course. I was introduced to "kiss the mirror". My riding turned to crap immediately afterwards. I got the head, shoulder and elbow part but body weight......? Yeah, na. Didn't happen. Gold course made everything gel and my riding changed yet again. Marvelous stuff.