L-Plate Rider
The ration of Front and rear brake to appliy depends on the bike. If you're on a street machine then it's propably 85% front and 15% back, on a crusier 75/25. Then the road and weather conditions... So think/look well ahead and apply progressive braking with both brakes... and be gentle with it....
Kiwi back at home!
Originally Posted by vifferman
a little wheel would be more prone to getting upset by say a pot hole or something as it will fall in to it more than say a proper 17 or 18 inch wheel
bikes
I've always been taught to use 75/25 in the dry and you count it when you do it, so say to yourself, mirrors, signal (if req), front brake, back brake, gear, gear etc. It means you get them in the right order.
Trick is not to apply both brakes at the same time - one must follow the other.
For the wet, its 50/50 ratio, but you do back brake first.
The reason you do one brake before the other is because you need to move the weight onto the wheel thats doing the majority of the braking, for wet riding this will result in the entire bike squatting evenly and becoming more stable.
As per normal, the amount of pressure you apply is up to the situation, and you should not be locking any wheels.
The contents of this post are my opinion and may not be subjected to any form of reality
It means I'm not an authority or a teacher, and may not have any experience so take things with a pinch of salt (a.k.a bullshit) rather than fact
Would you like some CANDY!?!?!
Not saying it's what happened to you that fateful day but: I understand if you brake real (re: too) hard initially, you could compress the front forks all the way. No suspension travel left means any bump at all could cause the wheel to skip off the ground, it stops rotating straight away (No road to keep it spinning, so the brake only needs to overcome the mass of the spinning wheel, not the entire bike) and once it touches back down it's not turning. No gyroscopic forces to keep you upright, no wheel rotating to take you around the corner.
And then the ouch happens. My first and only off on a bike happened while on a straight and grabbing (Rather than applying) the brake too hard on an unfamiliar bike. Squeak, tip, crash, ouch.
If the braking is progressive, I imagine you can get away with applying the brakes very firmly as long as you don't run out of suspension travel. I think I've lifted the back wheel twice now on the same bit of road when people step out and didn't see/hear me coming. I don't know what that says about the rear suspension on Mr Honda :-). That intersection outside the post office on the corner of Victoria and Manners st, people just step out.
I've solved the 'hearing me' problem however.. ;-)
has left the building
Was up at the hairpin at Pukekohe watching some racing and noticed that the best/fastest guys were doing very little engine braking. Hard to tell exactly 'cos I could only observe them over the last 50-100 metres or so of the back straight but it seemed like they were hard on the brakes but not downchanging. I had a little "off" at that very spot at a trackday (ran onto the grass and ignominiously dumped my bike at low speed) and the main cause (apart from incompetence, and very tiny testicles) was that I missed a downchange and ran out of brakes 'cos I was relying on the engine braking. Sooo...the point (you may fairly ask) ??....Well I'm wondering how you faster guys coordinate downshifting and use of the brakes in a situation like on the back straight of Puke where you're hitting the 100metre mark at (I dunno) 200km plus?? Do you drop it a cog or two and leave the clutch engaged while braking furiously with your right hand..or do you just grab the brakes and disengage the clutch throughout the whole braking manouevre, meanwhile dropping it down through the gears so that you're in the right gear for when you wind the power back on?
Kerry
Weekend cruiser
THats one thing my father always told me, "why use your engine to do most of your braking when the BRAKES were actually designed to do that exact thing!!!" But that was for off road riding and I suppose road riding is different.
Playin' around
Using the engine as a brake means you are pretty much gauranteed not to lock up the wheel (not completely, at least, so long as the engine keeps turning), so is very handy on steep descents off road. On the road, especially on bigger bikes, engine braking can be enough to make the back wheel slide. Still a whole different kettle of fish to a rear wheel lockup tho.
Some bikes have mechanisms in the clutch to help minimize this. For example, the TLR's have a screw-like system that when you back off the throttle from high revs (or shift down to early), it unwinds and allows the clutch to slip slightly, and then when you nail it again, it tightens up again. Called a "back-torque limiter" or some such wanky term, but does work nicely. Gives a pretty good balance of lots of engine braking (I for one quite like it, not only is it an effective method of bleeding off speed, but it makes your v-twin put out a fantastic sound) without making your wheel lock up.
Kiwi back at home!
slipper clutches that things like the zx10r have allow you to muff the downchange and stop the rear wheel locking even if the engine is not spinning fast enough
has left the building
Yes, sure, but that's kind of tangential to the issue that has got me a bit puzzled. It looked like, when I was watching the guys braking
very hard at the end of the straight at Puke, that they were not using any engine braking or at most, very little. I say that because I could not hear them downshifting . There seem 2 possibilities: (1) that they had already downshifted to (say) 4th and that they didn't worry about further shifting down, relying on the brakes only, while remaining in 4th gear until they had scrubbed enough speed off to drop the bike into the hairpin (and only then making their downshift to 1st or 2nd or (2) that they disengaged the clutch continuously while braking and downshifted several gears while the clutch was disengaged and then engaged the clutch as they powered out of the turn.
I don't pretend to understand all the physics involved but braking very hard from very high speed to probably 20kms/hour with the clutch disengaged or while remaining in a high gear seems somehow wrong (don't ask me why)...yet it seemed that that was what they were doing
Kerry
bikes
Well I use a funny old technique unique to me - so i'll just post it up for discussion only (there are better ways i'm sure the others will point out)
To me it all depends on the type of bike and the style of track. For inline-4s its all about throttle control rather than brakes, use the brake to scrub excess speed rather than to stop the bike. Generally full on braking occurs when you have a longish straight followed by a more than 45 deg. corner (such as a 90 or 180), otherwise its either just throttle control thru the bends or maybe a little bit of brake. Sets of twisties generally have an average speed thru them, so you need to know how to work the throttle to get the correct varience.
When you do have to do hard braking there are various techniques depending on how (or if) you were taught. Americans and Aussies tend to favour blipping (because its taught in the superbike school), whereas many don't (like me). I'm off the old KR style where I use the clutch to feel the engine and control engine braking/power delivery - I also shift multiple gears at the same time - it means I can be very precise with the throttle (just set and forget). I like to always have drive on both wheels, so I never ride with the clutch lever pulled in so far that the rear wheel is in freeplay.
On tight corners I do the heaviest braking when the bike is upright, after I have set my body position for the corner (what I call my apex position), then, will the reminants of the speed is being scrubbed off I'll change down to the gear I need and half let out the clutch so the engine is either free (i've got the correct road speed for the rear wheel in the new gear) or its pushing back (engine braking - too much road speed for the new gear) - the amount of push back I get determines how much brake lever I use to balance the speed for the gear. I use what could be called a half shift, that is, I pull in the clutch only til the load is taken off the engine and feather it very slightly between each gear (just to feel the engine - its how I know if I need to go up/down another gear). On a honda gearbox I've found I can set the throttle (I have all my shift points marked on the speedo - but I know them by feel/sound) - just need to be precise and heavy with the foot and the amount of resistance it gives back helps determine engine speed (there is a certain pressure you need for it to snick - if I need more, I know it wont change).
The drawback is that it favours the tighter or more precise corners over the looser ones where I may need to carry a higher corner speed (higher gear) and balance the bike with a little bit of brake drag (to get the bike to squat). The main reason I brought my 250 inline-4 was to get back this corner entry/mid corner speed - which took about a year or so for me to learn to my satisfaction. The 250 also develops the need to feel the engine and not rely on the brake so much. I've found having that feel on the 250 ideal because if you let the clutch out too hard (say at 18k rpm instead of 14k) you can end up with a serious case of bent valves. 125 riders will tell you about clutch control as well
I'm not really a fan of slipper clutches, I can see the benifit of having one for the odd time you bugger up the gear change by not using the feel properly, but as far as I can see they are only of use if they are dialed in correctly and that is a bit of a chore to do last time I looked. I guess thats something else I need to experiment with
Also, sometimes I've found that its way better to shut back the throttle gradually from an earlier point than it is to hit the brakes hard later (I dont use braking markers - only turn in points) - sometimes I decide to overbrake slightly and accelerate harder into the apex, or I may want a higher entry speed so may not brake as hard - that depends on whats happening around me. The latter one does require correct body position and strength, because I have to be able to let go the brake and shift weight to get the arm leverage to allow the correct tip-in before the radius is fooked - if not its a visit to the countryside (having RSI - this is what I have the most problem with - i'm often not strong enough to turn the bike as I want to).
Finally, I think its not actually about knowing how to slow down, its about knowing how to speed up. When I learn a new circuit, I always ride it at half speed using only the throttle, just keep picking up the speed until I absolutely must brake, then I try a little bit more, then a tab of brake. You just keep picking up the speed and tabbing the brakes harder each time moving the corner entry spot in closer. Might have to do 20 odd laps (a days worth) to get it, but at the end you'll have your lines and turns and brakes all sorted and you'll even have consistency (hopefully). When you pick up the speed for the next corner, do it at the correct corner exit point, not half way along the straight, or you will get into the lazy habbit of not exiting the corners correctly. On the rare times I do track days or ride, you'll see me in C grade riding like a granny with one hand on my lap - it means I'm working things out
Just my two cents worth. I wouldnt recommend using anything I've said, its only there as food for thought. Attending a race school is perhaps the safest way of learning - I believe many clubs run these from time to time
The contents of this post are my opinion and may not be subjected to any form of reality
It means I'm not an authority or a teacher, and may not have any experience so take things with a pinch of salt (a.k.a bullshit) rather than fact
eschew obsification...
you mean you DON'T wear a skirt on a bike??But at least you can wear a skirt on [a scooter], and ride in a civilised fashion, with your knees modestly pressed together...
...
Grass wedges its way between the closest blocks of marble and it brings them down. This power of feeble life which can creep in anywhere is greater than that of the mighty behind their cannons....... - Honore de Balzac
kickstart my heart !!!
front brake for the win, thou im finding with the zxr as opposed to the gn im using a bit more back brake and having alot more control in emergency stopping etc using both combined, where as the gn i could full tit front and itd just suck the shocks up and id lurch forward and stop, thou id only be going slow on the gn unlike the zxr hohoho
Highway Biker
This is my spin on non-trick, regular road-riding. Works for cars too, apart from the front/rear thing.
Best braking aid is your eyes, for observation ahead of you, to help you anticipate.
Brake pads are much easier to change than engine parts, so use your brakes.
Brake in a straight line.
Decelerate by closing in the throttle. Change down each gear when you get to the appropriate speed, blipping the throttle at each change. This gives smooth changes with "mechanical sympathy" for the bike
If you need to stop more quickly, give the front a squeeze and change down to match your speed. You'll just know this instinctively, after a while, and won't need to look at your spedo or anything
Same advice as everyone one else, front brakes with a touch of rear, if required.
Good idea to give the rear a good try out, every now and then, to check it out and avoid it siezing up through lack of use. You can do this at low speed.
In a car, I brake, then double-declutch on the down shift or sometimes, just blip the throttle while passing through neutral, to equalise the engine and shaft speeds.
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Roy Price - May the fish be with you! ®
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