Coromandel : Perceptual countermeasures

[Blackbird]

It always pays to keep well to the left on blind corners at this time of year because of the numpties with big boats who don't know how to take corners.

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Yep, but bikers aren't exempt from that either by personal observation. Recently followed an Audi 4x4 who cut every left and right blind bend. Nearly caused a major shunt on one corner and carried on like nothing happened. As it happened, there was a camera in our car so it was his misfortune

[SPman]

... and have plenty of time to get out of the way if someone is over the centre line. .

I know a couple of people who thought that........ a shame it doesn't work that way.........

[Blackbird]

According to some on here who have been to riding school they will say its better to hug the centre line because you can see further around the bend and have plenty of time to get out of the way if someone is over the centre line. That might be ok if whoever is coming the other way is going real slow but I would not bet on that being the case most of the time and agree with your thinking of staying as left as possible.

You've taken it totally out of context. Good Roadcraft has flexibility built into it to account for the conditions encountered. As you appear to have never upskilled, it's understandable that you wouldn't grasp that.

[Moise]

According to some on here who have been to riding school they will say its better to hug the centre line because you can see further around the bend and have plenty of time to get out of the way if someone is over the centre line. That might be ok if whoever is coming the other way is going real slow but I would not bet on that being the case most of the time and agree with your thinking of staying as left as possible.

Just curious, have you ever actually done any riding courses? I've never heard anyone suggest that.

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[Gremlin]

You've taken it totally out of context. Good Roadcraft has flexibility built into it to account for the conditions encountered. As you appear to have never upskilled, it's understandable that you wouldn't grasp that.

Just curious, have you ever actually done any riding courses? I've never heard anyone suggest that.

Let's remember that there is "internationally recognised and adopted" approaches to roadcraft that underpin almost every training course in some way and can be traced to it's origins circa 1950s, and then apparently cassina's opinion. I wasn't going to reply to this or other threads, but I've already proven the contradictions and lack of facts in a previous thread and stick to my original point... I'd rather spend my time productively improving those that want to improve, than argue with those that don't (yes, moot point about new riders seeing the ... opinion...). Full and proper roadcraft is not mastered in half an hour or through one post or explanation, rather a lifetime of continuous improvement.

[Blackbird]

So then what sort of bends do riding schools suggest you hug the centre line and what ones they don't?. I have seen UK Roadcraft videos and they do appear to hug the centre line mostly and even corner on the centre line when the road is wet too.

I'd rather spend my time productively improving those that want to improve, than argue with those that don't (yes, moot point about new riders seeing the ... opinion...). Full and proper roadcraft is not mastered in half an hour or through one post or explanation, rather a lifetime of continuous improvement.

I think Gremlin has summed it up rather nicely.

[slofox]

So then what sort of bends do riding schools suggest you hug the centre line and what ones they don't?. I have seen UK Roadcraft videos and they do appear to hug the centre line mostly and even corner on the centre line when the road is wet too.

I once followed a dude from Whangamata to Waihi who adhered to the "hug the centre" doctrine. It scared shit out of me watching from behind when he would go way towards centre as we approached a left hander. Those who know the road will know it is tight and narrow in parts as well. I decided not to follow him again since it would be hard to get rid of all the blood off the paintwork should he fuck it up.

Personally, I stay as far from proximity to any other vehicle as possible on the grounds that if i am not near it, I shouldn't bang into it...( I hope)

[Moise]

No I have not done any courses but have seen UK Road Craft video tutorials on the internet. From the tutorials I have seen though this hugging of the centre line to see further around bends would be the only thing I would disagree with though. I have read comments from other posters on here critisising what riding schools teach in terms of cornering lines too.

I'd suggest that you do the ACC Silver and Gold courses and see if that approach is taught.

I would say though that the average US rider seems to think that racing lines through corners are the way to go. But then most of them voted for Trump, so they can be safely ignored.

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[nzspokes]

I once followed a dude from Whangamata to Waihi who adhered to the "hug the centre" doctrine. It scared shit out of me watching from behind when he would go way towards centre as we approached a left hander. Those who know the road will know it is tight and narrow in parts as well. I decided not to follow him again since it would be hard to get rid of all the blood off the paintwork should he fuck it up.

Personally, I stay as far from proximity to any other vehicle as possible on the grounds that if i am not near it, I shouldn't bang into it...( I hope)

If you enter a LH bend at pace and on the middle of the LH wheel track there is a rubbish bin, how to do fix this?

[pritch]

If there is good visibility a late entry line would seem appropriate and provide the best view. If it's a blind corner that's a whole nuther matter.

Lazy journos like to consult the editor of The Dog and Lemon Guide, he must be readily accessible to them and it seems he likes to talk, but if he has any qualifications regarding motorcycling that's been a well kept secret.

And since this thread is supposed to be about the Coromandel: http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=240578

[Gremlin]

This story has made the media and a link was posted by another poster on here. The bit I refer you to is that he says advanced training does not improve safety. So if this guy is to be believed many on here pushing rider training are doing it under a false belief that it will make you a safer rider.

The problem is that you take one person's statement that suits you, and you turn it into your own gospel. One thing that is true, is that in some cases, after rider training, a rider can be overconfident, and this is covered in roadcraft. The simple fact is that it isn't black magic, it isn't a magic pill to stop crashes but will, for your average rider (there is no point looking at extremes, you look in the larger user groups), remembering not to be overconfident, should be a safer rider.

Now, when roadcraft was first introduced by the UK police (two serving officers developed it circa 40s and 50s) there was a substantial reduction in crashes across their vehicle fleet (I forget the numbers, but we're not talking 1%) and so successful it was expanded into the civilian population (the birth of IAM UK) then adopted by other countries (1 or both of those serving officers emigrated to NZ and started IAM NZ).

The biggest problem faced (and this is a big generalisation, so hold onto your chair) that those that undertake training have most likely already done so, are in the right mindset, receptive to the feedback and a safer rider on the road before training has started. The group most at risk are the ones that feel they already know everything, refuse to undertake further training or think they're fine on the road. This group are generally the ones that rider training would have the most benefit on, but require the most input, or impossible to improve as their minds are closed to learning. On this point, ask any course, any workplace training, only those open to improving will benefit.

So this is the conundrum faced, and where ACC/Police etc hit a bit of a wall. Plenty of riders see training as boring or unnecessary. How do you change that? For arguments sake (and remember Ride Forever is a drop in the bucket), those 5000 odd places that were available, the motorcycle population is 100,000 from memory? Let's say 5% of riders have taken the opportunity, probably less, as many have done multiple courses. They have probably helped reduce the motorcycle accident rate, or the severity, but quantifying that is pretty much impossible. It doesn't stop one muppet who refuses to undertake training, from passing on a blind corner and being wiped out. It's just one more death tacked onto the toll.

NZTA et al have had a position for decades that driver training bred overconfidence and this is why the average driving level is piss poor. This will not be fixed in 5 or 10 years and will take decades. Tests have been made harder, losing your licence is easier (requiring test resit under harder tests) so eventually, upskilling those that wish to, and eliminating the worst, you'll slowly see an improvement. I recall an article about a mother complaining her daughter failed her test because she lived in the country and hadn't practised city driving and how unfair that was. These adults are passing their standards and opinions onto their children right now... so again, it will take a long time to improve. It is only when there is a societal shift to not tolerating poor driving and not accepting average as OK, that things will improve. Worse still, you have these people who the media seek for an opinion, passing on rubbish which society then accepts.

Simply put, I do believe that good training can improve a rider, make them safer and as a safer rider, even improve the safety of others who do put themselves at risk (by identifying the hazards, poor choices etc), thereby making the roads safer. Because I believe it, I invest countless hours of my personal time into doing so but accept that not all will see that. Often riders will debate points I make, but healthy debate evaluating all aspects aids learning. Simply disagreeing because, and refusing to entertain, will benefit no-one.

[Moise]

A long time ago in a country far, far away some dodgy research "proved" that driver training did not reduce accident rates.

This is completely counter intuitive. If it were true, why is anyone trained at all? Why not just take someone off the street and make them a doctor?

However, it has now become a generally accepted mantra that driver and rider training is a waste of time. The results are obvious on our roads every day, and are not pretty.

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[Gremlin]

If you read his article again he says its "universally accepted" which gives me the impression than there is more than just him who thinks advanced rider training does not make riding safer.

Well this just re-inforces my opinion of everything I read in the media... I never trust it's accurate and certainly don't take it for granted. It's their opinion it's universally accepted, yet the USA, UK, Australia and NZ have training programs, to name just the few I'm immediately aware of. So straight up... "universally accepted" pretty much makes everything else out of their mouth worthless.

With respect to your point about rider training making riders overconfident I have in the past read that that is the reason why the Police/NZTA do not want to make it compulsory. Maybe they fear there will be more people successfully outrunning them in chases.

I doubt all of this. I know police riders, police instructors and the ambo riders. The police riders go through annual training and certification and the police instructors have been assisting in training the ambo riders as well. They too follow the Police Riders handbook sourced out of the UK which IAM uses, but naturally they include the sections on pursuit and emergency riding. The police see the value in training and as per my previous post, I'd doubt that the riders likely to run from police would be the same ones signing up for riding courses as the mentality of the two riders are different.

You must enjoy going to riding school every year in the same way I guess people enjoy sports/hobbies etc.

I'm no angel and I'd tell any associate member that asked. I've lost my licence from demerits and seen the impact of risky riding losing multiple friends through the years. I've mostly changed my ways and this is my way of giving back and helping riders upskill.

[Akzle]

I'd doubt that the riders likely to run from police would be the same ones signing up for riding courses as the mentality of the two riders are different.

there's a difference between "running from" and "just not stopping for, then testing their riding/driving ability to determine if they have a legitimate cause to impede your travel"
i mean hell, if trained operator's can't keep pace...

[Bass]

Well this just re-inforces my opinion of everything I read in the media... I never trust it's accurate and certainly don't take it for granted.

Based on personal experience, I have long held the opinion that are none among us quite so skilled as journalists, at distorting the truth without telling a lie. Had few ex-journo's agree with me and in writing too.

So generalised statements about what is "universally accepted" without any references or even data, carry very little weight for me.