Old Steve had an off

[oldiebutagoody]

Cool double standards story bro.

Yup sure is.

Which is why I try not to throw stones, .....glass houses etc etc.

[Akzle]

... story about having a rifle barrel stuck up my nose in the Bethlehem Post Office in the early hours of Christmas morning, .

jesus !

[Katman]

If this thread really was started as a means to get people to learn something from it, there'd be a whole lot more discussion about whether your lane positioning could have been better, whether 40 - 45 kph was an appropriate speed for the situation and how you managed to misread the level of hazard that the situation presented - and a whole lot less of the "there there, don't be so hard on yourself, it was the nasty cab driver's fault".

[Maha]

Seems as though old Steve did learn something from this ''Cautious rider who will be even more cautious in future''

[pritch]

If this thread really was started as a means to get people to learn something from it, there'd be a whole lot more discussion about whether your lane positioning could have been better, whether 40 - 45 kph was an appropriate speed for the situation and how you managed to misread the level of hazard that the situation presented - and a whole lot less of the "there there, don't be so hard on yourself, it was the nasty cab driver's fault".

You need to lighten up. Again.

I've posted details of accidents and near misses and I read other accounts of accidents and near misses because they act as a reminder. They can promote thinking about the situations described so as to help one react appropriately should such a situation arise.

Unremitting negativity though, doesn't tend to promote much of anything.

[WristTwister]

Those yellow cross-hatched "Keep Clear" zones are a hazard, I often see:

1. Cars stopping on them as if they weren't there
2. turning cars drive straight through and risk getting T-boned by traffic flowing in the second lane
3. people on two wheels lane-splitting through these keep clear zones and risking not being seen (see 2.)

Ride Forever (Andrew Templeton not Ian btw) teaches that you should look at every intersection, so we have to consciously add these Keep Clear zones to that list. Obviously we'd need to consider the best road positioning for being seen from any potential traffic (1-3, 1 for right turning traffic, 3 for left turning). Probably covering our brakes as we approach an intersection, maybe going even slower than 45, try 35?

Some people say that your helmet is the most visible part of a motorcyclist in traffic, maybe attach a strobe light. With the festive season well underway we should easily find some christmas lights to adorn our bikes with as well. (I'm being sarcastic, NEVER assume we're seen).

[Ulsterkiwi]

I believe the chances of avoiding the crash would have been far greater if you had been riding a taller bike for the simple reason they give you better perifial vision. If you are tall enough demo an adventure bike and ride exactly the same route and if you feel instantly safer you will know the problem is with your bike. No need to put any more money into further riding school training then. I have demoed a crusier myself and was well aware the lower ground clearance could present a danger but they do have a neat look about them though.

Only the arrogant or the truly stupid assert there is nothing more to be learned, which are you? Its seems pretty obvious that the OP is reflecting on what happened and what they can learn from a nasty but thankfully recoverable incident. The lessons are more about what they could have done differently than what bike they were riding. Having a different machine is not in and of itself going to change the use of that machine. The change simply offers different behavioural options not a guarantee of their use.

Exactly what money needs to be put into riding school that presents such a barrier? A Ride Forever Gold course costs $50 for a full day of instruction. Compared to the cost of running a motorcycle that is pocket change. Even paying an instructor $75 an hour for one on one training seems pretty inexpensive to me against the costs of owning and maintaining a motorcycle.

Inevitably things go wrong, a question of when not if, so a more useful measure is how we respond to what management loves to call "adverse events". It is to the OP's credit that they acknowledge something needs to change in how they responded to the incident. That infers an openness to the idea he has some responsibility and doesn't look for something or someone (or dog) to blame.

[bogan]

Poster 1 has said he can not ride a tall bike as he is not tall enough for them but unlike you he did not rubbish my suggestion. The higher you are on the road the better your peripheral vision is on anything whether that be a tall bike or a big rig which in my opinion gives you a safety advantage whether you have been to a riding school or not. Poster 1 said he had already been to riding schools and sounded like a careful rider rather than a guy who had come to grief while riding under pressure to keep up on a group ride. Shit can happen no matter how many riding schools you have been to.

And I bet it the cab's fare was one of those motherfucking dogs again, right. Unavoidable, eh sport!

[Ulsterkiwi]

Poster 1 has said he can not ride a tall bike as he is not tall enough for them but unlike you he did not rubbish my suggestion. The higher you are on the road the better your peripheral vision is on anything whether that be a tall bike or a big rig which in my opinion gives you a safety advantage whether you have been to a riding school or not. Poster 1 said he had already been to riding schools and sounded like a careful rider rather than a guy who had come to grief while riding under pressure to keep up on a group ride. Shit can happen no matter how many riding schools you have been to.

I did not rubbish the suggestion of a taller bike. I said riding a taller bike does not make the rider safer, it provides different abilities. Peripheral vision will not be made better by being higher up. Peripheral vision is determined by an individual's unique anatomy and physiology. An elevated position will change what that individual's peripheral vision is potentially able to detect, not that they will detect it.

What I actually questioned was your assertion that there was no need to spend money on riding school. Exactly what evidence have you to support the notion that education and training are NOT beneficial?

If you had actually read what I written you would have seen that I too asserted things will inevitably go wrong. At no point did I state taking instruction would guarantee a rider could be incident free. Did you even stop for one minute to consider that the OP's reflections were happening because they had attended rider training courses?

And how, pray tell, did group riding enter into this conversation? Your limited record collection must be all but worn out by now.

[PrincessBandit]

?... Poster 1 said he had already been to riding schools and sounded like a careful rider rather than a guy who had come to grief while riding under pressure to keep up on a group ride....

Goodness, I was wondering how long it was going to take for that ole chestnut to come up. I was silently congratulating you for your restraint, but alas it did not last.

[nzspokes]

In relation to the actual accident that poster one had I meant that getting a taller bike over going to a riding school would have been more beneficial but only in relation to that actual accident. Tell me how does a riding school teach you to see over the top of a 4WD which I think poster one said prevented him from seeing the taxi sooner? We will have to agree to disagree on any merit of sitting up higher gives you in terms of peripheral vision. The issue is a moot point anyway as poster one said he is not "Tall Enough" for a tall bike plus has also been to riding schools but maybe just not the right one perhaps according to you. I have ridden in similar lanes myself and am fully aware of the risk of right turning traffic between stopped cars in the next lane and keep an eye out for them. I did not have to go to a riding school to learn that. Having a tall bike despite what you say gives me a safety advantage. Maybe you need to go for a ride on a tall bike on such a road as it may surprise you the better view and safety you will get from it.

Hey Retard, ever think that 4x4 had windows?

[bogan]

Having a tall bike despite what you say gives me a safety advantage. Maybe you need to go for a ride on a tall bike on such a road as it may surprise you the better view and safety you will get from it.

They do have longer stopping distances though.

Nor can I think of any tall bikes tall enough to see over a 4wd on (not to mention vans, trucks, etc), 4wds generally being taller than one's standing height, and one's standing height generally being taller than one's practicable riding height (on account of the foot downy bits).

It's almost like the ability to know the limitations of what you can see, and ride accordingly, is a more practical option that saying; if only one's steed was higher, one could get the best perspective of all

[Ulsterkiwi]

In relation to the actual accident that poster one had I meant that getting a taller bike over going to a riding school would have been more beneficial but only in relation to that actual accident. Tell me how does a riding school teach you to see over the top of a 4WD which I think poster one said prevented him from seeing the taxi sooner? We will have to agree to disagree on any merit of sitting up higher gives you in terms of peripheral vision. The issue is a moot point anyway as poster one said he is not "Tall Enough" for a tall bike plus has also been to riding schools but mybe just not the right one perhaps according to you. I have ridden in similar lanes myself and am fully aware of the risk of right turning traffic between stopped cars in the next lane and keep an eye out for them. I did not have to go to a riding school to learn that. Having a tall bike despite what you say gives me a safety advantage. Maybe you need to go for a ride on a tall bike on such a road as it may surprise you the better view and safety you will get from it.

Ok, I will give it one more go.

A taller bike will only help if you use the options it provides you with. The OP is not able to take advantage of those so your suggestion is moot as you said.

Again, I am saying a taller bike COULD help, it is not accurate to say that it WILL

Riding school is not about telling you taller bikes change your view. Riding school is about getting you to think about how you ride the bike you have.

One question I would ask the OP is: what was your road position just before the incident happened? Was that position the best to maximise how visible he was to other road users that might present a hazard to him? That is one way to obviate the problem of not being able to see over a 4WD.

He stated he had already slowed down, thats good, it means he was thinking about what was going on around him. What might have helped in this situation was more thinking about what he could do to make himself safer.
Note I said "safer" not "safe" because there is always risk and always a possibility things will go wrong no matter what. Taking a rider education course is an effective way of learning how to mediate for risk, not remove it.

I ride an adventure tourer by the way, about as tall as they come.

[Ulsterkiwi]

.... as a result I rest my case. ......

....Without any further details I can only assume it was a case of riding under pressure to keep up. ......

both timely reminders that if someone is counting on you to make a cogent argument based on actual facts to keep them from the death sentence, the future is not looking too bright.

[onearmedbandit]

BTW there was a news report a few days ago of a guy having a crash with a car going in the opposite direction on a group ride. Without any further details I can only assume it was a case of riding under pressure to keep up. It would certainly be worthwhile for the NZTA to run a safety campagin about the danger of group rides and the pressure to keep up but if the group riding posters on here are anything to go by they would just ignore it anyway.

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

You are right though, you can only assume. Could've however been any number of situations that caused that riders accident. Did that ever cross your mind? Actually, you don't need to answer, it is obvious it didn't.