New crash study.

[Viking01]

Now that I think about it is quite likely I do ride like that anyway but more so perhaps on tight twisty roads where you really have to be on/near the centre line to see where you are going. I also pick lines where I know I am not going to overcook the corner. So generally speaking I ride possibly in between the 2 extremes in your diagram. Unlike you guys though I do not see cornering as something I feel I would like to get faster at doing and as I said the accident statistics on bends prove thats not a good idea to aspire towards.

Having watched this thread - and others in the past, I think we can safely say that your latest post above confirms that you're absolutely clueless about safe cornering.

And more so, I don't think you even know which lines you yourself are actually taking into corners.

Because if you did "know the lines you use", you would realise that the preceding diagram shows "safe" lines for road riding (ignore track riding)
- and -
you wouldn't be making clueless comments like:
-"it is quite likely I do ride like that anyway"
-"I also pick lines where I am not going to overcook the corner"
-"generally speaking, I ride possibly in between the 2 extremes"

Further:

Many of the respondents have tried to put aside corner 'entry speed' component in order simply to focus on discussion of safe positioning. They were not saying that appropriate corner 'entry speed' wasn't important, nor were they saying they were trying to go quicker around bends. Leave that out of the positioning discussion.

What they were trying to get into your head were points like:
-appropriate position will give you the opportunity to see ongoing traffic earlier, and allow you to take evasive action slightly sooner (if needed)
-appropriate position could help improve your chances of getting around a corner safely if you do happen to have come in with slightly too much entry speed.

I don't care how many years you have been riding for. You seriously need to get some advanced rider training, and to read some decent books on motorcycle handling. Not only could you end up riding more safely, maybe you'd realise how clueless your comments on some of these threads have been.

If however you're trolling, then please ignore my comments, as you're doing an absolutely splendid job.

Cheers

[SVboy]

Having watched this thread - and others in the past, I think we can safely say that your latest post above confirms that you're absolutely clueless about safe cornering.

And more so, I don't think you even know which lines you yourself are actually taking into corners.

Because if you did "know the lines you use", you would realise that the preceding diagram shows "safe" lines for road riding (ignore track riding)
- and -
you wouldn't be making clueless comments like:
-"it is quite likely I do ride like that anyway"
-"I also pick lines where I am not going to overcook the corner"
-"generally speaking, I ride possibly in between the 2 extremes"

Further:

Many of the respondents have tried to put aside corner 'entry speed' component in order simply to focus on discussion of safe positioning. They were not saying that appropriate corner 'entry speed' wasn't important, nor were they saying they were trying to go quicker around bends. Leave that out of the positioning discussion.

What they were trying to get into your head were points like:
-appropriate position will give you the opportunity to see ongoing traffic earlier, and allow you to take evasive action slightly sooner (if needed)
-appropriate position could help improve your chances of getting around a corner safely if you do happen to have come in with slightly too much entry speed.

I don't care how many years you have been riding for. You seriously need to get some advanced rider training, and to read some decent books on motorcycle handling. Not only could you end up riding more safely, maybe you'd realise how clueless your comments on some of these threads have been.

If however you're trolling, then please ignore my comments, as you're doing an absolutely splendid job.

Cheers

Please ignore the autistic one. You have pointed out clearly the ignorance and inability to understand differing points of view to his. Personally I wish to encourage him to continue his cornering method, especially as we have now learned of his reliance on that big back brake, surely the most important one on a bike!!!

[Zedder]

Could somebody please translate this into English?

It is:Look at me, look at me, I'm cassina and I'm a danger to myself and others.

[Gremlin]

Thats true Mike the only reason why I make comment in them is that there are guys on here that say in effect that cornering on a motorbike is a science and my view is that its not unless maybe you want to be an F1 racer.

Well that pretty much sums up the difference. I mean, diagrams like these are just for giggles, and we can safely ignore gravity at the same time, unless we're going to the track...

[Ulsterkiwi]

But often picking your line to get maximum visibility around a corner requires a "centre line hug" and I have seen videos of guys doing it. If someone else comes around the corner a bit over the centre line you will get cleaned up. Its just my belief and if you still think I am wrong good luck with your belief. The higher speed will be of no help if shit happens. You need to have a look at some of the videos of dangerous tourist drivers over the wrong side of the road near Queenstown to see how wrong you are with your belief in centre line hugging at speed to get the best view.

Thats true Mike the only reason why I make comment in them is that there are guys on here that say in effect that cornering on a motorbike is a science and my view is that its not unless maybe you want to be an F1 racer. To say you must ride a specific line when cornering on the road is dangerous in my opinion and I would just say that getting down to a speed that suits the corner is a far better way of thinking about cornering. I find the recomended speeds stated where signs are posted as a good guide. If you slow down to about the speed thats stated you will have a far better chance of avoiding any hazard than if all you are thinking about is sticking to some riding school line and travelling much faster. It has been stated that most bike crashes are on bends due to high speed which is what these guys and schools promoting riding a specific line are encouraging by saying you can go faster sticking to specific line.

I can see where you would doubt what a riding school teaches about cornering, IF THAT WERE ACTUALLY WHAT RIDING SCHOOLS TEACH.
A recent Ride Forever article reprinted in BRM explained that the basis for the RF courses and the fundamental theory behind what instructors try to instill is something called Roadcraft. That refers to a system for riding derived from what UK Police riders are taught.
When you learn anything new or attempt to teach anything new a common approach is to break complex ideas into smaller sized chunks making it easier to take those ideas on board, understand them and begin to apply them. Over time, with growing confidence in one's understanding of those smaller chunks one can build up to the entire set of ideas and concepts.
It is thus with Roadcraft. A first step to applying Roadcraft to cornering is to think about what you might need to achieve when choosing your lines. To say that riding schools advocate or teach a single, rigid set of lines for cornering is simply not true. As you clearly have not been under the tutelage of these schools you should desist from perpetuating that myth and perhaps actually attend a course.

When doing ANYTHING on the road on a motorcycle, or a car for that matter, your lane position, speed and gear should be determined by a set of priorities. Safety, stability and visibility. So what is taught is that achieving a good view can be done by taking a wide line but of the three priorities achieving that visibility is actually bottom of the list. One's safety and the stability of the machine should always take precedence. That being the case , when riding using the principles of Roadcraft, it is actually impossible to maintain a rigid line for all corners. There is no "roadcraft" line, rather what is appropriate for the conditions and what priorities will allow. The same corner the next day or even 2 hours later may well require a different line using the same criteria.

Roadcraft is not about wide lines, its a complete system of vehicle control.

[swbarnett]

there are guys on here that say in effect that cornering on a motorbike is a science and my view is that its not unless maybe you want to be an F1 racer.

All cornering, no matter the vehicle, is a science. It is a sub discipline of physics. Yes, it can be applied to varying degrees depending on your goals. However, simply saying that sticking to x speed for x corner is safe under all circumstances is naive at best.

To say you must ride a specific line when cornering on the road is dangerous in my opinion

And you won't find me disagreeing with that. Perhaps is has not been stated in so many words but what I'm trying to get across is that there is an ideal safe line that is a starting point. Alter it at will in response to the exact circumstances you find at the time. It is you that is saying line means nothing and crawling around a corner is all that matters.

and I would just say that getting down to a speed that suits the corner is a far better way of thinking about cornering. I find the recomended speeds stated where signs are posted as a good guide. If you slow down to about the speed thats stated you will have a far better chance of avoiding any hazard than if all you are thinking about is sticking to some riding school line and travelling much faster. It has been stated that most bike crashes are on bends due to high speed which is what these guys and schools promoting riding a specific line are encouraging by saying you can go faster sticking to specific line.

You seem to think that we're advocating "balls to the wall" speeds around every corner. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, I for one, refuse to crawl round a corner when a little more speed (often up to double what you're espousing) is still safe if the cornering line is also taken into account.

[Swoop]

If there is traffic coming the other way...
What "line" I would take during my avoidance would depend on the nature of the hazard.

So, on a blind corner you would just "teleport back in time" or just press the rewind button, then just have another attempt, perhaps?

Now that I think about it is quite likely I do ride like that anyway.

I'm convinced that you have no idea whatsoever.
Your posts conclusively indicate this.

[Viking01]

Please ignore the autistic one. You have pointed out clearly the ignorance and inability to understand differing points of view to his. Personally I wish to encourage him to continue his cornering method, especially as we have now learned of his reliance on that big back brake, surely the most important one on a bike!!!

Hi, Thanks for the reply. I've been on the KB website long enough to appreciate this particular situation. My only reason for even bothering to comment in the first place is that I had some concern that new riders to the website might mistake his/her comments as being knowledgeable or informative.

Given that cassina's earlier comments related to cornering, I just wanted to make the point that his/her rambling comments are unhelpful at the very least. Especially for those that might be trying to promote safe riding practice and behaviour within the riding community.

Very glad to see that others (like Gremlin and UlsterKiwi) subsequently provided some good comments in reply. Admire both your patience and delivery.

Cheers

[caseye]

Hi, Thanks for the reply. I've been on the KB website long enough to appreciate this particular situation. My only reason for even bothering to comment in the first place is that I had some concern that new riders to the website might mistake his/her comments as being knowledgeable or informative.

Given that cassina's earlier comments related to cornering, I just wanted to make the point that his/her rambling comments are unhelpful at the very least. Especially for those that might be trying to promote safe riding practice and behaviour within the riding community.

Very glad to see that others (like Gremlin and UlsterKiwi) subsequently provided some good comments in reply. Admire both your patience and delivery.

Cheers

Glad you have made comment on what is a particularly important craft.
Unfortunately while you may have a modicum of patience left for cassina, I do Not.
I genuinely feel their incompetence and thier constant offering of advice that if taken on board by a new rider, could and would lead to a sudden death, one I'd lay the blame for, squarely at her feet!
I once thought this person too stupid to be a troll.
I was persuaded that they might be.
No , a troll silly!
I've gone full circle.
It's simple, they are!
Please people don't encourage it to speak, by writing screeds in the hope that it gets a/the point, ever!, they won't, better than you or I have tried.
Hey Mike! got a new friend? you can have her.
Long as you take her for a long ride in the dog infested countryside and dont come back with her.

[bogan]

You may as well say the NZTA is unhelpful putting the signs there too

And I may agree, same goes for those fucking double yellows. They keep putting them on the straights before corners, which makes it really hard to pass, since there is often only about 50m of safe passing area when going around a corner, you got to get a really good run at it, but sometimes this results in an aborted attempt with brakes being slammed on if a car is coming the other way. But, we must do exactly as the road marking or signage says lest we be unsafe, right?

If you think you have more helpful ideas on cornering lets hear them or are you too frightened in case your cornering ideas are deemed "Unhelpful" too.

Steer with the rear.
Late apex.
Maximise use of the available road.
Watch for dogs.
Understand the limits of you and your machine.
Don't panic brake and put it into a hedge.

[pritch]

Hope you have a thick enough skin if those who attack my view attack you too.

'S OK I've got big shoulders. Fairly amply proportioned gut as well.

[buggerit]

Could you explain then if you have read my posts fully how slowing down to the approximate speed on bends where there is a recommended speed sign posted is "Unhelpful"? You may as well say the NZTA is unhelpful putting the signs there too but if there was no sign do you think crashes on such bends would go up or down? I am sure they are not put there for fun but rather as a result of many people coming to grief on those particular bends.

If you think you have more helpful ideas on cornering lets hear them or are you too frightened in case your cornering ideas are deemed "Unhelpful" too.

If you learn to read corners correctly, suggested corner speed signs will be just that and maybe those camper vans tailgating you will no longer be nice issue, but somehow I doubt that.

[Akzle]

Glad I am not a lone voice in this debate.

"debate" is a bit of a stretch. i mean. it's you.

[Gremlin]

Could you explain then if you have read my posts fully how slowing down to the approximate speed on bends where there is a recommended speed sign posted is "Unhelpful"? You may as well say the NZTA is unhelpful putting the signs there too but if there was no sign do you think crashes on such bends would go up or down? I am sure they are not put there for fun but rather as a result of many people coming to grief on those particular bends.

If you think you have more helpful ideas on cornering lets hear them or are you too frightened in case your cornering ideas are deemed "Unhelpful" too.

You need to understand that you can't rely on those signs to manage a corner. There are many corners in NZ that don't have those signs at all. There are roads that don't have the white corner posts (marked with red, silver and yellow) either. Quite simply, you need to be able to read the road and conditions and apply your skills to the task. I've come across quite a few corners where the advisory speed was not in pattern with the rest (eg, 2 marked 45, but one should have been a 35) and this is a small subset of roadcraft.

You are also happy to say that 2 other people in the entire thread partially or fully agree with you. Pretty sure the disagree are a factor of 10 or more to your count, but I'm not going to bother counting...

[swbarnett]

Have you not read all the posts though from those who have said by taking a specific line you can be assured of being able to corner faster?

While in essence this may be true I think you've applied the wrong emphasis (we may not have stated it clearly enough). The point is that for ANY chosen corner speed^* a better line will allow you to take the corner safer at that speed. Yes, this does mean that the better the line the higher the speed that can be to maintain for the same level of safety.

It's like saying (to vastly simplify) "safety = line / speed". To maximise safety you can either raise the line value (i.e. pick a better line) or reduce the speed (or both).

Some of them appear to claim they have been taught that in riding school.

If you did one or two you would know this true.

Safety and Stability as you say do not appear to come into it the way they think as it would likely mean taking a less than desirable and slower line through the bend.

Obviously safety and stability come first. What we're talking about will help you maintain both.

The line I, and others, advocate (as a starting point) is not the fastest line through a corner. That would be the racing line and most often not appropriate for road riding and best left for the track.



^*Within reason. This certainly doesn't apply to taking a corner with a recommendation of 15kph at 200kph for example.