New crash study.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Lets go back to the statistics of what this post is about plus I have read in a number of publications that the majority of single motorcycle crashes occur on bends. With what you have said here is effectively wanting more crashes to happen with schooling so faster cornering lines can be got? How do you know that many riders who have crashed have not been taking fast riding school lines anyway but shit has happened as a result of the speed they have got up to not allowing them to make a correction in time? There is a saying "The Faster You Go The Bigger The Mess" I dont strictly adhere to the speed limit all the time myself but reserve that for straight stretches of road that are statistically not as dangerous for single motorcycle crashes.

I really cannot fathom for the life of me how you have interpreted what I said to mean I want more crashes to happen. To say that you have applied contrived logic is something of an understatement.

Courses teach lines which, if conditions allow them to be taken, will increase the potential speed a corner can be taken at safely. That is not the same as saying "irrespective of the prevailing conditions take this line and follow it without thinking about what might influence your choice of line" The latter is your interpretation of something you have not witnessed or experienced for yourself.


I am not sure how to express this without some frustration but as someone on this thread has already alluded to, you are either a masterful troll beyond even Akzle's abilities, or you really are a very challenged individual.


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[MarkW]

Having been a visitor and then a member of this site for a long time I have been much amused by the words that have issued from Cassina over the years.

My conclusions:

Cassina is sometimes more than one person - there are some changes in phrasing and logic that suggest this;

Cassina may well have had more than a decent exposure to rider training, right up to the point where I suspect that Cassina has been or may even still be an instructor - every now and again the comments made hit the nail on the head pretty well.

Cassina has managed to get a very large number of people to spend a very large amount of time questioning and commenting on the posts made. What a great way to get other riders to really think through their processes in order to clearly explain the shortcomings in Cassina's posts.

Cassina's ability to completely adhere to a regimented set of responses suggests that they are written on a stickit firmly attached to the screen or keyboard!

So, my congratulations on an outstanding job. Keep up the good work.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Having been a visitor and then a member of this site for a long time I have been much amused by the words that have issued from Cassina over the years.

My conclusions:

Cassina is sometimes more than one person - there are some changes in phrasing and logic that suggest this;

Cassina may well have had more than a decent exposure to rider training, right up to the point where I suspect that Cassina has been or may even still be an instructor - every now and again the comments made hit the nail on the head pretty well.

Cassina has managed to get a very large number of people to spend a very large amount of time questioning and commenting on the posts made. What a great way to get other riders to really think through their processes in order to clearly explain the shortcomings in Cassina's posts.

Cassina's ability to completely adhere to a regimented set of responses suggests that they are written on a stickit firmly attached to the screen or keyboard!

So, my congratulations on an outstanding job. Keep up the good work.

Probably the most insightful post ever


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[pritch]

I dont strictly adhere to the speed limit all the time myself but reserve that for straight stretches of road that are statistically not as dangerous for single motorcycle crashes.

More accidents occur at intersections than on bends, the single vehicle ones are on bends of course. I'm sure it's possible to crash on straights but apart from medical emergencies or similar it's hard to see why anybody would. Unless a dog ran out?

Straight stretches of road may seem the best places to exceed the speed limit to inexperienced riders but in fact that is not the case. The Police know that drivers do this and tend to concentrate of such stretches of road. Nick Ienatch discusses it in his book "Sport Riding Techniques". Unfortunately I can't quote him directly as I loaned the book out. The gist though is that it's more satisfying to up the pace a bit on a winding stretch which utilises the advantages that the bike has to offer. Riders without the relatively basic skill setrequired should probably stick to the limit everywhere.

He also discusses single vehicle corner crashes in a US context. These apparently often have a skidmark across the road and into the bank - or off the cliff.
In many if not most cases, the rider could have successfully rounded the corner had they but tried.

[Taxythingy]

So.....how about that study huh....

It's good, but small. Many of the crash/near-crash categories have only 1-2 observations in them, so we can't say much more than "not frequent, but they happen".

I found some of the location categories confusing (they appeared to bundle rural and residential together as their baseline), but separated urban and motorway. Surely rural and residential should be considered separately?

I liked the event identification system and how it could pick up near-crashes and similar situations. That really helps look at what is going on. Also liked the duration - should be long enough that riders get on with riding, rather than thinking about a video system recording them.

I wonder how much it would cost to repeat the study, but with about 1000 people split over a variety of regions & countries (e.g. Germany/France/UK, US/Canada, OZ/NZ, Japan).

[Ulsterkiwi]

It's good, but small. Many of the crash/near-crash categories have only 1-2 observations in them, so we can't say much more than "not frequent, but they happen".

I found some of the location categories confusing (they appeared to bundle rural and residential together as their baseline), but separated urban and motorway. Surely rural and residential should be considered separately?

I liked the event identification system and how it could pick up near-crashes and similar situations. That really helps look at what is going on. Also liked the duration - should be long enough that riders get on with riding, rather than thinking about a video system recording them.

I wonder how much it would cost to repeat the study, but with about 1000 people split over a variety of regions & countries (e.g. Germany/France/UK, US/Canada, OZ/NZ, Japan).

Thats a really good idea, one you would think NZTA and ACC would/could buy into. Maybe a proposal could be made to MSAC as potential use of the $25 levy they have input into spending (input, not control) That would take care of NZ. Australia is awkward because different states would have to be brought on board, not sure this is something the Commonwealth government would want to take on. Awkward but not impossible. The European countries might be easier to get involved, it may be different for this area but in my field the North Americans tend not to be interested in anything outside of North America. Ok, so for North America I really mean the US.
It wouldn't be cheap but I don't think it would be the most expensive project ever undertaken.

Another thought. At some point you would imagine ACC would need to evaluate the impact of the Ride Forever programme beyond measuring how many people undertake a course. The study design described could add one more element to the data collected, course participation or not and at what level over the duration of the study/the participants involvement.

[rambaldi]

Thats a really good idea, one you would think NZTA and ACC would/could buy into. Maybe a proposal could be made to MSAC as potential use of the $25 levy they have input into spending (input, not control) That would take care of NZ. Australia is awkward because different states would have to be brought on board, not sure this is something the Commonwealth government would want to take on. Awkward but not impossible. The European countries might be easier to get involved, it may be different for this area but in my field the North Americans tend not to be interested in anything outside of North America. Ok, so for North America I really mean the US.
It wouldn't be cheap but I don't think it would be the most expensive project ever undertaken.

Another thought. At some point you would imagine ACC would need to evaluate the impact of the Ride Forever programme beyond measuring how many people undertake a course. The study design described could add one more element to the data collected, course participation or not and at what level over the duration of the study/the participants involvement.

When I did a bronze course we signed something about collecting data afterwards if we crash (I think it would relate to tracking any future motorcycle related ACC claims)

[Ulsterkiwi]

When I did a bronze course we signed something about collecting data afterwards if we crash (I think it would relate to tracking any future motorcycle related ACC claims)

hmmm, that would make sense. I have done 3 or 4 RF courses and do not remember signing anything like that. I wonder if its a recent addition?

[Ulsterkiwi]

Your book about upping the pace through bends does conflict with the statistics though which is a worry. You need to look at some FB video or similar that shows dangerous twisty road tourist driving and you may very well find your book is very wrong but if not believe in its teaching at your peril.

Read the book, its freely available, show me the page where one is instructed to "up the pace through bends".

Anyway, I follow the shoe

[swbarnett]

It is said that everyone likes to think they are a better rider/driver than everyone else and you have just demonstrated that with this ramble as you have included other motorists and not just me.

It is also said that when one starts flinging insults it is obvious that one is losing the argument.

I have been riding since 1976 and if I did not know how to ride I would not be alive today now would I?

Bullshit!

I have also never crashed due to my own fault.

Bullshit! (from your own descriptions)

There is always a first time though even for "know alls" like yourself.

Bullshit! My contention is that I am alive today because I recognise that there are things I don't know.

If you read all the posts again one poster did mention a riding school that taught the way I ride.

Give me the details. As in when? It's entirely possible that the thinking has changed over the years. If not, then unlike you I would definitely be interested in taking a course at said riding school to get a different perspective.

Maybe you should go for some lessons yourself at that school but you would not want to end up riding like me I guess as it would be uncool eh!

I'm always open to new ideas. That's one reason I joined KB in the first place. Cool has nothing to do with it.

[rambaldi]

hmmm, that would make sense. I have done 3 or 4 RF courses and do not remember signing anything like that. I wonder if its a recent addition?

I wouldn't think too recent, it was probably more than a year ago that I did my course.

[swbarnett]

There is a saying "The Faster You Go The Bigger The Mess"

If you believe that then that explains a lot.

[Taxythingy]

hmmm, that would make sense. I have done 3 or 4 RF courses and do not remember signing anything like that. I wonder if its a recent addition?

That's been in there for at least 2 and a bit years. I suspect the crash statistics generated will be skewed by people self-selecting for the courses or not. It ought to make the training look good. If that keeps it cheap and accessible, it gets my vote.

[Ulsterkiwi]

That's been in there for at least 2 and a bit years. I suspect the crash statistics generated will be skewed by people self-selecting for the courses or not. It ought to make the training look good. If that keeps it cheap and accessible, it gets my vote.

I should probably pay more attention to what I sign then. Honestly can't remember anything about that.
I think they will do all they can to keep the training both cheap and accessible.

[Ulsterkiwi]

I think it was another poster who said the book said to "up the pace through bends" but it was his interpretation rather than the exact words.

Read the book, its freely available. Then you do not have to rely on another's interpretation.