Mandatory ABS

[Racing Dave]

It must be time for all the engineers at Bosch to retire.

Because, from reading this thread, we all know better than they do. We are all far better at braking than a scientifically engineered braking system, developed using a gazillion dollars worth of R&D.

Clearly, we all know better, because we have been able to emergency brake without falling off.

Have a look at this, from Fortnine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDbWZiaUeDY

[F5 Dave]

I saw that. Would be good to test a non budget system.
Either way I'd choose abs in the wet whilst on tour every time.
.

[R650R]

Saw Ryan’s vid also kinda contradicts Tkacs.
I don’t think most riders would successfully manage his technique of braking lightly briefly then full power during an emergency. Most people’s reaction times prob slower than that valve pump he’s worried about. Almost kinda irresponsible of someone with that much pull to promote it.

It’s a bit like how these influencers made trail braking a buzzword recently. I had to Google it after a younger work colleague was excited about it. Hhmmmm braking up to the apex of a corner “ you need to know this to manage emergency situations etc”
Unless your trying to outbreak Toprak most people on street should more focused on having an end of braking point before corner and be off them completely when turning.

[george formby]

I don’t think most riders would successfully manage his technique of braking lightly briefly then full power during an emergency. Most people’s reaction times prob slower than that valve pump he’s worried about. Almost kinda irresponsible of someone with that much pull to promote it.

Loading the suspension before dropping the anchor is braking 101. Has been since we stopped using our feet to brake.

IIRC, in the F9 vid he demonstrates that loading the suspension is also the way to get the best performance from ABS.

It's fisics.

[Gremlin]

What most fail to touch on, is that there is a difference between practising emergency stopping, and being mentally prepared/conditioned for it, and a car suddenly pulling out in front of you on your regular commute.

Ultimately, yes, in the right conditions you can out-brake ABS, simply because the entire function of ABS is to keep the wheel rolling when its locking up (aka, increases your stopping distance). But, you need good conditions and the skill to manage your braking force, loading the suspension and using progressive braking in combination to maximum effect.
Now contrast this to your typical road, variable road surface, and mixed conditions that you haven't been practising on seconds before. ABS stops you from locking the wheel and going splat. You can maintain control of the motorcycle more, potentially weave around the issue (debris on road for example). Locked wheels don't like that request very much.

[Hoonicorn]

What most fail to touch on, is that there is a difference between practising emergency stopping, and being mentally prepared/conditioned for it, and a car suddenly pulling out in front of you on your regular commute.

Ultimately, yes, in the right conditions you can out-brake ABS, simply because the entire function of ABS is to keep the wheel rolling when its locking up (aka, increases your stopping distance). But, you need good conditions and the skill to manage your braking force, loading the suspension and using progressive braking in combination to maximum effect.
Now contrast this to your typical road, variable road surface, and mixed conditions that you haven't been practising on seconds before. ABS stops you from locking the wheel and going splat. You can maintain control of the motorcycle more, potentially weave around the issue (debris on road for example). Locked wheels don't like that request very much.

If a motorcyclist can be trained to out-brake ABS, does the ABS system interfere with that ability and undermine their potential to stop in a shorter distance? If it doesn't, at least not significantly, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

How many motorcyclists can out-brake ABS in most situations, who spend the necessary time to regularly practice their E-braking? If it's a very small number of dedicated motorcyclists, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

[Gremlin]

If a motorcyclist can be trained to out-brake ABS, does the ABS system interfere with that ability and undermine their potential to stop in a shorter distance? If it doesn't, at least not significantly, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

Effectively yes, it would interfere, as like cars, the trend is to auto-on the systems at every start. The system might drive you insane and you can switch it off, but to get the safety rating, it must be enabled on start (stuff like predictive collision warning - PCW, autonomous emergency braking - AEB). Then you get options like my 1090R where you buy a dongle from KTM, and it keeps the settings through a restart and warns you on every start it's not legal, but it's an adventure bike, and there are use cases where ABS is a really bad idea. For street bikes, the functionality at least at this point varies. Some can't be turned off, some can be partially disabled and others can be turned off. If the motorcycle allows it to be turned off, then nothing stopping anyone from turning it off. As always, the rules tend to cater to the lowest common denominator.

How many motorcyclists can out-brake ABS in most situations, who spend the necessary time to regularly practice their E-braking? If it's a very small number of dedicated motorcyclists, then I don't really see a problem with mandatory ABS for everyone.

How many undertake regular rider training, vs bought a motorcycle to go fast? As always, it's about running before you can walk. Even if you practise your e-braking, there have been examples where on the same day, practised, then later in the day, car pulls out, they panic and grab a handful of brake and go down. It's in those oh shit type moments that ABS will rarely be beaten, and can potentially assist with grabbing the brakes (if you lock the front, it's going to stop that).

I had a moment years ago in the South Island, came around a corner at ~110kph, to find the surface completely shiny with almost no grip. Er, gripping the seat (as you do), I initially braked before the shiny stuff and stood the bike up, then released the brakes and just sat still on the bike as we slid across the patch. Didn't even close the throttle, and didn't need to. As soon as the rear lost grip traction control kicked it and removed the power. The point was, the aids assisted the situation, lessening the effect. If the rear had been able to spin violently, it would have destabilised the bike. Once the shiny stuff was over, I could re-adjust and carry on. Same idea for ABS really.

[R650R]

I wonder if we will ever get EBS on bikes?
Modern trucks have system that detects how fast the brake pedal is being depressed. Before you’ve physically got your foot all the way to the floor it’s already cracking the brakes straight to the edge of lock up.
Maybe the MotoGP launch control in reverse that drops the suspension now we have so many bikes with electronic suspension.

Plus one on the idea of practising. Although last time I did that I had to chase a well meaning lady that picked up my braking marker (backpack) from side of road.

[Gremlin]

I wonder if we will ever get EBS on bikes?
Modern trucks have system that detects how fast the brake pedal is being depressed. Before you’ve physically got your foot all the way to the floor it’s already cracking the brakes straight to the edge of lock up.

EBS on bikes is an interesting one. The R1250GS/GSA has cruise control, it does use the rear brake to keep the bike to the set speed where needed. The announced R1300GS coming next year will have adaptive cruise control. Some motorcycles already have it (R1250RT, Multistrada V4, KTM 1290SAS etc).
These motorcycles can apply the brakes as needed, but there is some debate (because motorcycles are inherently unstable) about the consequences of motorcycles slamming the picks on and causing a rider to crash. Motorcycles simply aren't stable like vehicles with a wheel at each corner, plus the big fat contact patches.

Even when ABS was introduced, shortly after some bikes got cornering ABS, but required upgraded IMUs for the additional data. Even changing tyres from street to dual purpose is going to alter parameters...

[F5 Dave]

Marshaling at a race meeting that turned wet I've seen an experienced racer out pace the field then several laps later hit the deck braking into a corner. He knew it was coming, and yeah he would have been on slicks, but not many here could claim the same natural talent. I'd offer nobody.
It was just traction miscalculated. With a known corner.
How good can you be on the road in conditions that hopefully never occur. . . But do to some people?

[MarkW]

A number of years ago I ran motorcycle rider training courses around the North Island. At a course held on the Waitara Go-Kart circuit (the only piece of affordable “closed” road that we could find in Taranaki at the time) a very experienced rider on the latest and greatest technology wise motorcycle came to watch the less experienced riders go through their training. This experienced rider, through his job as a motorcycle salesman, was one of the main reasons why we were able to run three full training courses a year in New Plymouth.
When it came to the braking and emergency braking part of the full day on the track I invited the experienced rider to show off the ABS controls on his motorcycle. Which he happily did to great effect. I then kept him on the circuit doing the same exercises that the less experienced riders were completing but with the proviso that he wasn’t allowed to have the ABS kick in. In other words he was to try and get his braking skills to the ultimate point where he was in control of 100% perfect braking and the electronics didn’t need to cut in. And I told him that if he achieved this 100% perfection that he would be stopping in a shorter distance than if the ABS activated.
Almost an hour later I was called something unprintable by the experienced rider because he had found that I was actually correct. When he did get things perfect his stopping distance was shorter. But on the great surface, with extensive practice, lots of concentration, focus and feel this had happened only once – in about a dozen attempts.
The rest of the attempts had either a longer stopping distance because there was more braking force available than was used or overbraking had activated the ABS on one of the wheels on his motorcycle.
Back in to the real world and the roads that we ride on. Is ABS perfect? Of course not in that the programmers of ABS can never programme in perfection for every situation, motorcycle tyre or surface that we may come across.
But ABS is a great backup to try and minimize the effects of the variability of road surfaces, tyre adhesion and rider ability. When a braking motorcycle wheel has a sufficiently different wheel speed to the other motorcycle wheel the braking force on the wheel with the lower speed is reduced until the speed difference is back within the programmed parameters. And this check is completed many times a second. Automatically. (As an aside if you want to do great stoppies on an ABS equipped motorcycle you need to drop the rear wheel speed faster than the front wheel speed is dropping – otherwise the ABS will reduce the braking on the front wheel.)
I regularly ride two completely different road motorcycles. One has ABS and one doesn’t. Having ABS as a backup doesn’t change the way I ride but does try to fix my mistakes when I get things wrong. When, not if.
As has been said in posts above this one I’m not sure how well automatically activating emergency braking will work on a motorcycle – having an unprepared rider falling forward over the handlebars and/or front wheel because the motorcycle has decided to stop in a hurry when the rider wasn’t paying attention may not be beneficial.
As with all technology riders can experiment as far as they are prepared to go with how, why and when it works. Knowing more about the capabilities of your motorcycle is useful, knowing the limitations of the technology is even more useful. A word of warning here – going past the limits of the technology could be both painful and expensive!

[Moise]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right.

Is it meant to be covered in the R4E courses?

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[roogazza]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right.

Is it meant to be covered in the R4E courses?

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

Yes ,was having this discussion a week ago with a Mech. I happened to use the wifes new Suzuki Swift Sport.... only done 8,000 kms, The thing was shuddering from the front (madam hadn't noticed ). Mech reckoned he'd had a few Sports Swifts doing the same, and called it glazed pads !!!!! from pootering around town. Few more Kms on it may help, but I will give it more of a workout now and again and see ?

[Berries]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right.

Was at a meeting a month or so ago where Greg Murphy was presenting. The lack of knowledge about what are now basic safety features was one of his big issues.

That and NZTA taking valuable oxygen away from the rest of us.

[rastuscat]

One of the craziest things about road safety is that most car drivers have no idea what safety systems their cars have, let alone how to use them. I may have got through to my wife how to use ABS, but she has never tried an emergency stop so is unlikely to get it right. Is it meant to be covered in the R4E courses?

This covers most of the safety features built into cars. The information is available, but most people don't go looking for it.

https://rightcar.govt.nz/safety-feat...ver-assistance

Braking is covered on R4E courses, mostly because it's the cause of so many unnecessary bins. Everyone is an expert, until they aren't.