Moeraki crash

[Jeeper]

perhaps they are 3rd generation kiwis driving erratically and overtaking on blind corners and double yellow lines....is that racist?

Not unless the race of the driver is mentioned. Debate should be about local license holder vs overseas license holder. I don't particularly care where they were born or what nationality they have.

[Berries]

I don't particularly care where they were born or what nationality they have.

Well you should. Some countries have lax or non existent testing, like many parts of India. Some simply have drivers who cannot cope with our roading network. Drove from Queenstown to Dunedin this morning and while the town was unusually quiet last night there are still rental cars knocking around with drivers who are quite clearly from the China/Taiwan area. Followed one for 20km through the Gorge and it was classic behaviour that we see on those roads. I was first on the scene of a crash in Cromwell a couple of months ago. Chinese driver.

Nationality helps show what side of the road people are used to and what their average driving standard is like. You can't just blame tourist drivers as a whole because a driver from Germany who fails to give way at an intersection probably did it for a different reason than an Australian would and IMO undoubtedly for a different reason than a Chinese person would if you try and understand their give way rules.

When was the last time you saw (in the newspapers or on TV) a Chinese visitor driver being involved in a fatal accident on NZ roads Â… ??

Don't have to go 200m from the the site of the crash this thread is about to find this https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/north-...er-fatal-crash.

1,200m away at the boulders turn off - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=11757237

What about Riley Baker 10km south of Moeraki - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=11699721

And talking of motorcyclists - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/633...illed-2-people

Any one of the above could have been you, me, or anyone else. It is wrong that we allow this to happen in pursuit of the tourist dollar.

[FJRider]

Don't have to go 200m from the the site of the crash this thread is about to find this[B][U]

Any one of the above could have been you, me, or anyone else. It is wrong that we allow this to happen in pursuit of the tourist dollar.

It is now 2020 … none since 2016 … ???

One in 2014 … one in 2015 .. and two in 2016. One of the latter killed herself in the accident. Hardly the scourge of New Zealand roads …

Too many find it easy to blame overseas drivers for killing our population …. 62 people already this year have died on our roads … How many were at the hands of an overseas driver of ANY nationality .. ???

Good on you for trying to prove a point though … although I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove …

[TheDemonLord]

Not unless the race of the driver is mentioned. Debate should be about local license holder vs overseas license holder. I don't particularly care where they were born or what nationality they have.

I think there needs to be a very clear distinction.

No one is leveling an accusation of group-level bad driving habits based on their Race. It's not like there is something at a Genetic Level that predisposes them to be bad drivers. As such, there is nothing to do with 'Race' that comes into it.

The common complaint is around Driver licencing requirements that are either inconsistent or the method of obtaining a licence is susceptible to Corruption. With this complaint, Nationality is absolutely a factor.

The next common complaint is around Drivers who have been appropriately licenced, but their driving experience is such that they are not used to Left hand, High speed, single lane, undivided, twisty roads that form the only links between major towns and cities. Again - Nationality here is absolutely a factor.

Lastly there is a comment around countries that have really only recently have either allowed their citizens to drive or had the economic growth so that an emergent middle class can afford to drive/own cars/go on holiday and as such they don't have a large population of competent drivers or mature driving culture. Finally - Nationality is a factor here also.

Now, of course, not all drivers from a particular area are going to be bad - It's a Bell Curve, there's a few fantastic drivers, a few shit ones and most are Ok. Where I see the issue is because of those 3 factors above, which are all linked to the rules and culture of the country they come from (not the 'Race' of the individual), the perception and over-representation shows that said Bell Curve is skewed.

I think that a frank discussion is needed, where one side acknowledges that nothing about this issue is to do with Race, even if you can find N number of people complaining about 'Bloody Asian Tourist drivers' - and the other side acknowledges that any solution has to be implemented in a way that is discriminatory only on driving ability, is fair and doesn't add unreasonable/excess burden to the tourist industry in it's application.

[FJRider]

.perhaps you should have a drive around central in the "on" season for tourists every second car is a rental and 2 out of 3 are driven badly by asians

And you should know that "Driving badly" isn't featured in any stat's (that I'm aware of) … and if caught by "Driving badly" … they risk only a Traffic Offence notice. At worst … a Summons to a New Zealand Court. Just the same as any Kiwi driver caught by "Driving badly" …

Sixty two deaths on our roads this year … and a lot of the year still to go. How many at the hands of an overseas driver … ?? Whatever the figure … it's more than we all would like … but New Zealanders kill more New Zealanders on our roads than any other nationality.

[FJRider]

Don't have to go 200m from the the site of the crash this thread is about to find this …

Less than two weeks ago I was in Moeraki for a few nights … coming from Oamaru direction heading south … just before the turn-off to Moeraki township … you come over a slight rise in the road. You then had Four seconds to decide to brake (or not) before it was too late to avoid a collision if somebody was (might be) turning.

On NZ roads … this is not only common … but to be expected. Often you may find you have less time to make that decision …

[FJRider]

perhaps they are 3rd generation kiwis driving erratically and overtaking on blind corners and double yellow lines....is that racist?

If you want racist … let's go through the stat's … count up the deaths that Maori vs NZ European drivers killed on our roads …

But … if it's fact … can it still be racist .. ??

[sidecar bob]

If you want racist … let's go through the stat's … count up the deaths that Maori vs NZ European drivers killed on our roads …

But … if it's fact … can it still be racist .. ??

Only if the facts make the aggrieved look bad, otherwise its perfectly ok.

[FJRider]

only if the facts make the aggrieved look bad, otherwise its perfectly ok.

ok ……………………….

[Berries]

It is now 2020 … none since 2016 … ???

One in 2014 … one in 2015 .. and two in 2016. One of the latter killed herself in the accident. Hardly the scourge of New Zealand roads …

Too many find it easy to blame overseas drivers for killing our population …. 62 people already this year have died on our roads … How many were at the hands of an overseas driver of ANY nationality .. ???

Good on you for trying to prove a point though … although I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove …

You're talking the whole country. I am talking a small radius centred on the crash this thread is about and crashes I have personal knowledge of.

I don't care about the north island or Marlborough or Canterbury. Me and the family use the roads in Otago and Southland. We have always had tourists drivers here, they will always feature in our crash stats because we are a tourist destination with, as someone else pointed out, sod all useful public transport. My issue is that there has a been a massive increase in one particular nationality coming here in the last few years and that nationality continues to show evidence of not being able to cope with New Zealand roads or traffic.

If I told you that 100 percent of multiple vehicle fatal crashes between Hampden and Palmerston over the last full five years were caused by drivers of this nationality, which they were, would you simply flick that away by saying I was being too specific, even though it is the section of road this thread is actually about?

[Berries]

Less than two weeks ago I was in Moeraki for a few nights … coming from Oamaru direction heading south … just before the turn-off to Moeraki township … you come over a slight rise in the road. You then had Four seconds to decide to brake (or not) before it was too late to avoid a collision if somebody was (might be) turning.

On NZ roads … this is not only common … but to be expected. Often you may find you have less time to make that decision …

And?

Pointed out elsewhere in this thread that this is the most common crash type for a motorcycle being taken out by another vehicle. There is a reason for that.

[Jeeper]

I think there needs to be a very clear distinction.

I agree that the discussion needs to be focused around driving ability for the conditions. I can even say that there is a difference between a predominantly urban short commute driver and rural longer distance driver. They have different habits built on different threats and experiences.

I'm not interested in racial or jurisdiction of license concern as such. It's purely about the ability, and how do we check it and improve it. Or control it. For argument sake, people with overseas licenses not be allowed to drive between dusk or dawn. Perhaps controversial, just a thought to start.

[pritch]

Last time I was down south it wasn't the tourists that scared me it was the local cockies. Not that they were doing anything wrong.

The road was Ranfurly Middlemarch Mosgiel IIRC. There were series of saddles, and each time I climbed onto another saddle - thick fog. I couldn't see where I was going, and had no idea where the road went, so I was going slow. The local cockies knew the road so they had the pedal to the metal. Oops! There's a motorbike! I felt like a moving target. A slow moving target.

[FJRider]

You're talking the whole country. I am talking a small radius centred on the crash this thread is about and crashes I have personal knowledge of.

I don't care about the north island or Marlborough or Canterbury. Me and the family use the roads in Otago and Southland. We have always had tourists drivers here, they will always feature in our crash stats because we are a tourist destination with, as someone else pointed out, sod all useful public transport. My issue is that there has a been a massive increase in one particular nationality coming here in the last few years and that nationality continues to show evidence of not being able to cope with New Zealand roads or traffic.

If I told you that 100 percent of multiple vehicle fatal crashes between Hampden and Palmerston over the last full five years were caused by drivers of this nationality, which they were, would you simply flick that away by saying I was being too specific, even though it is the section of road this thread is actually about?

As I understood … the accident this thread is about was caused by a Swiss driver as I recall … 100 % … ???

[FJRider]

Last time I was down south it wasn't the tourists that scared me it was the local cockies. Not that they were doing anything wrong.

The road was Ranfurly Middlemarch Mosgiel IIRC. There were series of saddles, and each time I climbed onto another saddle - thick fog. I couldn't see where I was going, and had no idea where the road went, so I was going slow. The local cockies knew the road so they had the pedal to the metal. Oops! There's a motorbike! I felt like a moving target. A slow moving target.

Yep … very common for fog there. Try it in a very stiff southerly. Leaning the wrong way into corners to stay upright …

But … on a calm and fine day …