Death toll on the roads is virtually identical to 2019

[FJRider]

... Its human nature.

What (if any) figures are available that give the percentage of those that have done riding courses ... that have been involved later in a motor vehicle accident .. ???

[F5 Dave]

When I was involved in the instructing game the actual qualified instructor (ie not a pleb like me) used to tell the students that previous students were still involved in accidents. His theory was over confidence.

But not really backed up with real data. Still a good thing to instill in fledglings.

[FJRider]

When I was involved in the instructing game the actual qualified instructor (ie not a pleb like me) used to tell the students that previous students were still involved in accidents. His theory was over confidence.

But not really backed up with real data. Still a good thing to instill in fledglings.

And those that have done any (or all) of the various riding courses ... will be able to tell you how good a rider they are ... because THEY have done the various courses.

Like ... "I've done the Gold course ... so I must be better than you ... who hasn't done any" type comments.

[caspernz]

When I was involved in the instructing game the actual qualified instructor (ie not a pleb like me) used to tell the students that previous students were still involved in accidents. His theory was over confidence.

There's a simple way of expressing it. Participants in any riding course can be divided into two very broad categories.

Group one become safer riders.

Group two now simply crash at a higher speed.

Difference between these two groups is attitude. As an instructor I have to accept that I have limited influence on the attitude of a rider.

Ask an instructor how they feel when they find out that a rider they gave a licence to recently, has been injured/killed in a single vehicle motorcycle crash. Am I supposed to feel guilty for giving a licence to a rider who ticked all the boxes on test day? Then same rider goes out, attitude and ego gets them injured/killed I don't own that decision they made

[F5 Dave]

. . .

Group two now simply crash at a higher speed.. . .



. . . Difference between these two groups is attitude.

I don't think its that simple. I think overconfidence, if that is the driver, will manifest in many forms of risky behavior.

But I do agree with the next bit. We had people wanting to learn, and people wanting to shorten thier provisional licence, as it was back in the day. The 2nd group knew it all and could often ride quite well, from a technical point of view. I sent a couple home for dangerous stuff that put others at risk.

Which reminds me,. . .

Then there was the occasional Hardley wannabe who needed a licence and we didn't send them away for having a 1340 for the carpark stuff. But we did insist on gloves. Which they invariably weren't wearing. Better control you see.

They never came back. Bet we were the butt of thier rants at the pub that night.

You just cant help the willfully stupid.

[rastuscat]

What (if any) figures are available that give the percentage of those that have done riding courses ... that have been involved later in a motor vehicle accident .. ???

The figure we have had which was audited and certified is 27%. A rider who has done a Ride Forever course is 27% less likely to submit an injury claim via ACC.

And the stats are standardized in terms of risk propensity. Which means that it compares apples to apples in terms of rider lifetime risk profile.

Its being reviewed again at the moment, and looks like increasing significantly. The new figure can't be released until it has been externally audited and validated.

Riders who have done courses are still subject to the same laws of physics as riders who haven't. If they follow too close, or get too narrow on a corner too soon, despite what they were told on the course, they are subject to the same adverse outcomes.

If someone does a course but doesn't change the way they ride, nothing will change.

[FJRider]

The figure we have had which was audited and certified is 27%. A rider who has done a Ride Forever course is 27% less likely to submit an injury claim via ACC.

As opposed to a rider that hasn't done a course ... would be 100% likely to submit an injury claim ... ??

And the stats are standardized in terms of risk propensity. Which means that it compares apples to apples in terms of rider lifetime risk profile.

Over a riders lifetime ... experience increases ... does risk then reduce somewhat .. or not .. ???

Its being reviewed again at the moment, and looks like increasing significantly. The new figure can't be released until it has been externally audited and validated.

So ... the figure you just stated/quoted ... may not actually be correct .. ?? Would this be due to an an incorrect initial assessment of the cause/effect of the rider training courses ... or changing attitudes and behavior of (some .. ??) riders that have completed the courses .. ???

Riders who have done courses are still subject to the same laws of physics as riders who haven't. If they follow too close, or get too narrow on a corner too soon, despite what they were told on the course, they are subject to the same adverse outcomes.

So ... a rider training course will not allow the rider to defy gravity and the various laws of physics. Who knew ... ???

If someone does a course but doesn't change the way they ride, nothing will change.

Like the one's that do all the courses ... and still crash. But it's all good ... if it wasn't THEIR fault .. ?? Right .. ??


Or have I got it wrong ... again .. ??

[FJRider]

There's a simple way of expressing it. Participants in any riding course can be divided into two very broad categories.

Group one become safer riders.

Group two now simply crash at a higher speed.

Difference between these two groups is attitude. As an instructor I have to accept that I have limited influence on the attitude of a rider.

Ask an instructor how they feel when they find out that a rider they gave a licence to recently, has been injured/killed in a single vehicle motorcycle crash. Am I supposed to feel guilty for giving a licence to a rider who ticked all the boxes on test day? Then same rider goes out, attitude and ego gets them injured/killed I don't own that decision they made

Almost ... but no Cigar,

Group one can be (mostly) safer riders ... but being human ... they can make an error of judgement. One that might not be regarded as stupid ... just a simple misjudgment. Speed and/or conditions at the time ... being the factors in the final result.

Group two aren't necessarily going faster ... but should be more aware of the risks involved ... taking more care to see issues before they become issues ... and act accordingly. If speed is a factor for this group ... perhaps they didn't fully understand the principals of the courses.

But ... those courses will tell you of the reduced amount of time you have to react at the higher speeds. And the implications of that. Riding courses will not increase your reaction times ... just make you aware of things that might be an issue ... very soon. That rider still has to decide the amount of urgency required to react. Usually two seconds ago ... but can only do it NOW.

Any driving/riding instructor who feels guilty about the on road death of a student they taught ... should change occupations immediately. Because they CANNOT be held accountable for those deaths/injuries.

[F5 Dave]

Actually, you would hope it would Decrease their reaction times.

We used to teach a philosophy from Kenny Roberts via Twist of the wrist.

Felt board with packets of reactions. If you have those ready to hand you can put that plan in action . Brake hard. Feel for grip. Escape path.
3 packets.

[F5 Dave]

The most prevalent lesson was braking. Both learners and advanced course made significant reduction in distance to stop

The hurt report showed that many did absolutely nothing in emergency situations. Teach them to react and not be afraid of the front brake could be the difference between hitting a car at bugger all vs 50kph.

Advanced courses we did it from 100kph. Many were scared. Yet we're happy to travel at that speed on the motorway.

[FJRider]

Actually, you would hope it would Decrease their reaction times.

We used to teach a philosophy from Kenny Roberts via Twist of the wrist.

Felt board with packets of reactions. If you have those ready to hand you can put that plan in action . Brake hard. Feel for grip. Escape path.
3 packets.

Seeing and knowing what the issue is sooner helps. But Traveling faster means less time for safe response period.

It's interesting you put looking for an escape route LAST.

Braking but NOT changing direction ... KEEPS you heading INTO the danger.

A (supposedly) trained rider will ALREADY have a planned escape route from their position ... if they don't ... then they never saw the danger increasing.

Putting themselves in a position they need to LOOK for the escape route.



I was told to be always be looking for the safest route away from where you are. Even before you have an issue.

That advice has never let me down.

[FJRider]

The most prevalent lesson was braking. Both learners and advanced course made significant reduction in distance to stop

The hurt report showed that many did absolutely nothing in emergency situations. Teach them to react and not be afraid of the front brake could be the difference between hitting a car at bugger all vs 50kph.

Advanced courses we did it from 100kph. Many were scared. Yet we're happy to travel at that speed on the motorway.

STOPPING in the middle of a "Situation" or leaving the "Situation" ... which would you choose ... ??

My Grandad rode motorcycles ... advice HE gave me ... I still follow.

The best bit was "Look for the safest way out ... before you NEED the way out" ... and as long as you're moving ... don't stop looking.


It seems the safety procedure most followed is ... When the shit hits the fan ... Brake hard until you think it's safe to change direction.

Is THAT your opinion too ... ??

[F5 Dave]

Well ok I feign in your superior advice. You are clearly the superior motorcycling guru.

[rastuscat]

STOPPING in the middle of a "Situation" or leaving the "Situation" ... which would you choose ... ??

My Grandad rode motorcycles ... advice HE gave me ... I still follow.

The best bit was "Look for the safest way out ... before you NEED the way out" ... and as long as you're moving ... don't stop looking.


It seems the safety procedure most followed is ... When the shit hits the fan ... Brake hard until you think it's safe to change direction.

Is THAT your opinion too ... ??

Referring to my post above, you are correct. The 27% figure is wrong. Its far lower than reality.

Ride Forever training is relatively new, having been introduced in 2012/2013. The 27% figure came from the riders who undertook training in the first few years. The new analysis is coming from the group that has taken part more recently.

Out of interest over 24000 individuals have taken part in Ride Forever courses to date. And 86% of them strongly recommend the course they took to their mates.

Its a case of people not knowing what they don't know. I'm not referring to people on KB, of course, as we are all awesomer than everyone else.

[SaferRides]

The most prevalent lesson was braking. Both learners and advanced course made significant reduction in distance to stop

The hurt report showed that many did absolutely nothing in emergency situations. Teach them to react and not be afraid of the front brake could be the difference between hitting a car at bugger all vs 50kph.

Advanced courses we did it from 100kph. Many were scared. Yet we're happy to travel at that speed on the motorway.

I thought I was OK with hard braking until the day I had to stop completely from 100 km/h on the motorway. 100 to 50 was no problem, but the last 50 km/h was the trickiest because I'd never practiced it. What happened was the rear wheel started to lift and I backed off too much.