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Thread: Death toll on the roads is virtually identical to 2019

  1. #166
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    See here for the latest feedback following the speed limit changes on SH6.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/...d-one-month-in

    It's actually not a bad article though the 'Feedback' seems to be entirely anecdotal and is doubtless edited to suit the prevailing narrative - That is that lower limits are a GOOD thing... The bit about accidents still happening on SH60 is amusing - So we haven't actually done anything about the standard of driving but everyone is going slower so that's OK...

    To be clear - I don't disagree with all the changes made. Around Pelorus Bridge the lower limit is a positive change but many of the other changes are simply soporific when you use them and don't allow you to make safe progress for fear of getting wrapped over the knuckles. A shame but there you go - The price of progress perhaps?

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Boy View Post
    See here for the latest feedback following the speed limit changes on SH6.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/...d-one-month-in

    It's actually not a bad article though the 'Feedback' seems to be entirely anecdotal and is doubtless edited to suit the prevailing narrative - That is that lower limits are a GOOD thing... The bit about accidents still happening on SH60 is amusing - So we haven't actually done anything about the standard of driving but everyone is going slower so that's OK...

    To be clear - I don't disagree with all the changes made. Around Pelorus Bridge the lower limit is a positive change but many of the other changes are simply soporific when you use them and don't allow you to make safe progress for fear of getting wrapped over the knuckles. A shame but there you go - The price of progress perhaps?
    First, congrats on the use of the word "soporific". I knew that sooner or later it would have a use.

    If I had a time machine I would know when I was going to crash, and have the chance to wind the clock back and go slower. Then the crash, if it happened at all, would be less serious.

    But I don't have a time machine. It's something even BMW hasn't addeed to it's top line models.

    It amuses me that people climb onto the interweb and grizzle about how crap drivers (apart from themselves) are, then bitch about speed limits being reduced. The logic confounds me. Like, we should let crap drivers go faster. Really?

    Each 10 kmh reduction in speed limit normally returns around a 4 kmh reduction in the over all speed people travel at.

    When I started as a traffic cop in Auckland we had a 20 kmh tolerance. But we killed around 750 per year in NZ that year. We have a learned a lot about kinetic energy management since then.

    Nobody ever thinks they will crash, which is why individuals, effected by optimism bias, object to reduction in speed allowance. It's as if they are having something taken from them for no reason.

    But collectively, the risk reduces as the speed of traffic reduces. It's the conflict between individual perception of risk, and the objective reality of collective risk.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    First, congrats on the use of the word "soporific". I knew that sooner or later it would have a use.

    If I had a time machine I would know when I was going to crash, and have the chance to wind the clock back and go slower. Then the crash, if it happened at all, would be less serious.

    But I don't have a time machine. It's something even BMW hasn't addeed to it's top line models.

    It amuses me that people climb onto the interweb and grizzle about how crap drivers (apart from themselves) are, then bitch about speed limits being reduced. The logic confounds me. Like, we should let crap drivers go faster. Really?

    Each 10 kmh reduction in speed limit normally returns around a 4 kmh reduction in the over all speed people travel at.

    When I started as a traffic cop in Auckland we had a 20 kmh tolerance. But we killed around 750 per year in NZ that year. We have a learned a lot about kinetic energy management since then.

    Nobody ever thinks they will crash, which is why individuals, effected by optimism bias, object to reduction in speed allowance. It's as if they are having something taken from them for no reason.

    But collectively, the risk reduces as the speed of traffic reduces. It's the conflict between individual perception of risk, and the objective reality of collective risk.
    Ah good - Some informed debate

    There are two main points to my argument on this:

    1. The media's narrative on the topic - That is that if you simply slow down everything will be better.

    You may think that I'm being simplistic/facetious here but when it comes to getting a certain message across then this is surprisingly accurate. Being in the Navy for some years has shown me time and again that factual accuracy comes a distant second to headline production. This, being an emotive topic, is no different from the media's standpoint.

    2. Reduction of the 'Collective risk' as you've succinctly put it.

    Collective risk is precisely that - Collective. That meaning that contributory factors are wide reaching and multi-faceted. Whilst it's entirely accurate to say that crap drivers are more dangerous if they can go faster those drivers/road users who aren't crap are punished too. The issue with SH6 is that we've now reached the point where the speed limit, IMHO, actually makes you drive/ride in a less safe manner owing to the sheer boredom brought about by the changes. The behaviours this creates are counter productive.

    Then again if the casualty figures are lower (Something the article has steadfastly avoided mentioning - Which supports my desired narrative theory) then the facts provide a stronger argument one way or the other.

    As was mentioned in an earlier post people need to know what it is they are doing wrong. Going slower is often a very effective way of masking this and not actually educating people. All of which takes time, money and resource of course.

    It's a fascinating topic - Thanks for the debate

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Boy View Post
    Ah good - Some informed debate

    There are two main points to my argument on this:

    1. The media's narrative on the topic - That is that if you simply slow down everything will be better.

    You may think that I'm being simplistic/facetious here but when it comes to getting a certain message across then this is surprisingly accurate. Being in the Navy for some years has shown me time and again that factual accuracy comes a distant second to headline production. This, being an emotive topic, is no different from the media's standpoint.

    2. Reduction of the 'Collective risk' as you've succinctly put it.

    Collective risk is precisely that - Collective. That meaning that contributory factors are wide reaching and multi-faceted. Whilst it's entirely accurate to say that crap drivers are more dangerous if they can go faster those drivers/road users who aren't crap are punished too. The issue with SH6 is that we've now reached the point where the speed limit, IMHO, actually makes you drive/ride in a less safe manner owing to the sheer boredom brought about by the changes. The behaviours this creates are counter productive.

    Then again if the casualty figures are lower (Something the article has steadfastly avoided mentioning - Which supports my desired narrative theory) then the facts provide a stronger argument one way or the other.

    As was mentioned in an earlier post people need to know what it is they are doing wrong. Going slower is often a very effective way of masking this and not actually educating people. All of which takes time, money and resource of course.

    It's a fascinating topic - Thanks for the debate
    I for one would be keen for speed limts to increase. I would probaly enjoy my riding more etc.

    However, until the standard of driving/riding improves, I just can't support that. Perhaps if we were all as awqesome as we think, sure.

    But evidence appears to suggest that we collectively do make mistakes too often for the leash to be lengthened.

    Good debate though.


  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    I for one would be keen for speed limts to increase. I would probaly enjoy my riding more etc.

    However, until the standard of driving/riding improves, I just can't support that. Perhaps if we were all as awqesome as we think, sure.

    But evidence appears to suggest that we collectively do make mistakes too often for the leash to be lengthened.

    Good debate though.


  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by release_the_bees View Post
    If I was a cop, and given free rein, the amount of people I'd ticket for tailgating would be off the charts.
    Several factors are in play here, firstly that nobody enforces the "keep left unless passing" rule, which results in;
    secondly there is the dumbed down motorists who have been fed the propaganda that "speed kills"... So we now have road users who will sit on the road and not give a fuck about anyone behind them.

    I'd be ticketing the cunts holding up traffic.

    Quote Originally Posted by roogazza View Post
    My pet hate is the type of person doing the training/grading and just how good they are.

    In the past I have seen some real doosy's doing licence testing for example at AA.
    It is quite noticable if you see a driver-training car on a multi-lane motorway. They are ALWAYS in the middle lane. So the retardedness is passed onto the new drivers.
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    It is quite noticable if you see a driver-training car on a multi-lane motorway. They are ALWAYS in the middle lane. So the retardedness is passed onto the new drivers.
    Ah yes, for a while now it's been part of the I endorsement course to get instructors to encourage new drivers to see the centre lane as the thru lane, using left lane mostly to prep for joining or departing motorway.
    Retarded in my view, but hey I don't write the syllabus. I suppose it's path of least resistance, many folks don't understand merge like a zip...
    If the words I say offend you, imagine the ones I keep to myself...

  8. #173
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    On many NZ “motorways” there is seldom much distance between on and off ramps. Unless traffic is very light it makes sense to use middle lane to avoid being cut off by bad mergers or exiters, especially in heavy b-train truck.
    Whatever vehicle im usually looking for where the best average flow is and change lanes to suit although not too frequently.
    It there’s space for someone slow to move into other lanevthen prob space for you to pass anyway.

    Tailgating is over rated, yes it’s dangerous but the real problem is someone that’s not paying attention. I’ve been hit three times from behind and following distance wasn’t the issue.
    You watch the dashcams vids and often traffic that is too close actually stops with a ciggee paper gap between bumpers but then someone who prob was a safe distance rams the lot of them oblivious that they stopped.

    Getting disturbing number of drivers staring into their laps while driving, playing with their phones or something else....Should change law and make a brief hand held call legal but txting major crime...
    Nothing to see here...

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    It's something even BMW hasn't added to it's top line models.
    BMW don't have any top line models at all

  10. #175
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  11. #176
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    Half the story is missing. Are miles up, are more riders riding, is the at fault party ratio changing? Yes, 57 is terrible, but so is the reporting.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by malcy25 View Post
    Half the story is missing. Are miles up, are more riders riding, is the at fault party ratio changing? Yes, 57 is terrible, but so is the reporting.
    Thing with media stories is they choose a point of view, and focus on that. They are making a news piece, not a balanced information piece.

    VKT is the important factor. Vehicle Kilometres Travelled. It's measured in millions of km. I've tried to find the VKT for motorcycles over the years, but it's eye-wateringly complex. They tend to get mixed in with other vehicle classes.

    Comparing the number of deaths to a historical figue can be very misleading.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post

    But I don't have a time machine. It's something even BMW hasn't addeed to it's top line models.
    thats a bit shit. Even my hot tub has a time machine!
    In the white room, with black curtains, at the station

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by malcy25 View Post
    Half the story is missing. Are miles up, are more riders riding, is the at fault party ratio changing? Yes, 57 is terrible, but so is the reporting.
    Policy makers and NZTA are focused on absolute numbers. Hence reporting is on absolute numbers. Very emotive.

    Target of zero deaths on roads gives a warm fuzzy feeling to the politicians, but in reality this is unachievable. There will always be accidents given the variables involved in traveling on road.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
    Policy makers and NZTA are focused on absolute numbers. Hence reporting is on absolute numbers. Very emotive.

    Target of zero deaths on roads gives a warm fuzzy feeling to the politicians, but in reality this is unachievable. There will always be accidents given the variables involved in traveling on road.
    Thing with Vision Zero is its not a target. Like, it's not realistic. It's aspirational, and allows us to focus on preventing every crash we can.

    If you set a goal of, say 250 per year, you are actually saying that 250 is acceptable.

    If we got to choose those 250, I could draw that list up fairly quickly. Problem is, we don't get to choose who they are.

    The folk who get killed are most often just Mr and Mrs Average, who have made a fundamental error, or two.

    Best video I have seen on Vision Zero is this one.

    https://youtu.be/k2tOye9DKdQ

    You are right, we will never eliminate road deaths. But it's good to try to.

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