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Thread: whose to blame here

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    The JP will apply the test "were these the actions of a careful and prudent driver".
    This is disputes tribunal though. Is that a JP or a Judge Judy? They tend to say there's wrong on both sides and award costs on a 50/50 basis.
    There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    This is disputes tribunal though. Is that a JP or a Judge Judy? They tend to say there wrong on both sides and award costs on a 50/50 basis.
    Do we know how old the driver was? Might have an influence on how much she ends up paying if she's on a fixed income? Even $6000 will be a lot of money for someone living just on the pension.
    Moe: Well, I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I...I can't compete with that stuff.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerrrd View Post
    Do we know how old the driver was? Might have an influence on how much she ends up paying if she's on a fixed income? Even $6000 will be a lot of money for someone living just on the pension.
    Note to self : Get hit by someone with deep pockets and a job.

  4. #19
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    Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004
    Stopping and following distances
    (1)
    A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
    (2)
    A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
    (3)
    A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.

    Therefore cyclist is at fault, not the driver (even if the driver was a careless arse who didn't look)
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004
    Stopping and following distances
    (1)A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
    (2)A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
    (3)A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.

    Therefore cyclist is at fault, not the driver (even if the driver was a careless arse who didn't look)
    Contributory negligence is a legal defense that can be used in personal injury lawsuits when the injured person is partially responsible for their own injuries.

    The driver initiated the problem, but the riders made it worse.

    Thing with the law is it's expected to deal with every situation. The transition from theory to application is tenuous. Imagine if the Police were to start writing tickets for every cyclist who followed too closely.

    I kind of feel sorry for the people who write and enforce the law. Many transport laws are so technical that enforcement is virtually impossible.

  6. #21
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    I decided to have a look into where this was - based on some rough maths - they are moving close to 40 kph.

    The lead rider is quite far to the left, with the 3rd rider being in the middle of the road, looks to be about a 2-3 metre gap between each rider.

    I would estimate that the driver started to pull out 1-2 seconds before the accident, right when the lead rider would likely have been obscured by the parked car.

    If the person driving did see the Cyclists, it is reasonable that she would have seen the 3rd or 4th rider in the pack, which would have given an altered perception of where the other road users are.

    I suspect they didnt see the Cyclists, pulled out, saw, the Cyclists - went Oh Shit, panicked and kinda just stopped (ironically, if they had gotten on with it - most likely wouldnt have had the issues).

    So, the Car driver has an element of Fault - I dont think they looked properly and didnt pull out safely.

    As others have pointed out, however - driving and riding so that you cannot stop safely is also against the law.

    The first rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

    The third rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

    The second rider, however, puts their foot down, turns their handlebars, this causing them to be bucked off (which is something I did as a kid, broke my arm - the culprit was a static Bush) - This was a rider-induced error.

    As such - I would say that this is a classic split fault accident. The Riders were riding too fast to stop safely and the rider who stacked it did a number of actions that exagerated the damage that they incurred.

    The driver also pulled out without properly checking it was safe to do so and by stopping mid-move, created additional hazards.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    Cycles are awesomely expensive these days.

    If the frame is toast, which it likely is, that's the guts of it. Replacement cost. The gears are likely Dura Ace Di2, which is crazy expensive, then you have the finishing kit and wheels.

    My road bike is worth more than many motorcycles I see, for no good reason. I'm never going to be riding the TdF. But a lot of people have motorcycles fit for the Nurburgring, which get pootled aroud the Coro Loop once a year, and only on fine days.
    When we were in Taupo for the Ironman 70.3 World Champs in December, we did some rough math across the thousands of racked bikes, and put it somewhere in the ball park of $50-100m (that's million) worth of bikes. Suddenly the odd security guard overnight looks like chump change...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Omorogbe from UK MSN on the KTM990SM
    It's barking mad and if it doesn't turn you into a complete loon within half an hour of cocking a leg over the lofty 875mm seat height, I'll eat my Arai.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    Land Transport (Road User) Rule 2004
    Stopping and following distances
    (1)
    A driver must not drive a vehicle in a lane marked on a road at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in the length of the lane that is visible to the driver.
    (2)
    A driver must not drive a vehicle on a road that is not marked in lanes at such a speed that the driver is unable to stop in half the length of roadway that is visible to the driver.
    (3)
    A driver must not drive on a road a vehicle following behind another vehicle so that the driver cannot stop the driver’s vehicle short of the vehicle ahead if the vehicle ahead stops suddenly.

    Therefore cyclist is at fault, not the driver (even if the driver was a careless arse who didn't look)
    That's interesting but completely irrelevant. The cyclist could see for miles, the car pulled out in front of him.
    There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by release_the_bees View Post
    My first thought was that he could have done with ABS.

    It just goes to show that even cyclists should practice emergency braking.
    ABS is a thing on bicycles these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I decided to have a look into where this was - based on some rough maths - they are moving close to 40 kph.

    The lead rider is quite far to the left, with the 3rd rider being in the middle of the road, looks to be about a 2-3 metre gap between each rider.

    I would estimate that the driver started to pull out 1-2 seconds before the accident, right when the lead rider would likely have been obscured by the parked car.

    If the person driving did see the Cyclists, it is reasonable that she would have seen the 3rd or 4th rider in the pack, which would have given an altered perception of where the other road users are.

    I suspect they didnt see the Cyclists, pulled out, saw, the Cyclists - went Oh Shit, panicked and kinda just stopped (ironically, if they had gotten on with it - most likely wouldnt have had the issues).

    So, the Car driver has an element of Fault - I dont think they looked properly and didnt pull out safely.

    As others have pointed out, however - driving and riding so that you cannot stop safely is also against the law.

    The first rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

    The third rider was able to successfully avoid the accident.

    The second rider, however, puts their foot down, turns their handlebars, this causing them to be bucked off (which is something I did as a kid, broke my arm - the culprit was a static Bush) - This was a rider-induced error.

    As such - I would say that this is a classic split fault accident. The Riders were riding too fast to stop safely and the rider who stacked it did a number of actions that exagerated the damage that they incurred.

    The driver also pulled out without properly checking it was safe to do so and by stopping mid-move, created additional hazards.
    You would have a different response if it was a motorcycle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    You would have a different response if it was a motorcycle.
    That is a pretty fair accusation.

    But it relies on a Motorcyclist riding like a push bike - which I think would get critiqued.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  12. #27
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    I agree with Pete’s comments, hope we get to hear final outcome.

    All the car driver is possibly guilty of is an improper manoeuvre or careless use, $150 fine at most.

    I freezexframe watched the vid a few times;

    1 lead cyclist observed hazard and reacts avoiding collision.
    2 Second cyclist is following too closely and probably relying solely on verbal warnings from lead rider as all he can prob see is number ones butt cheeks.
    3 third cyclist also not pay proper attention and clips the back wheel of second cyclist, if you watch clearly this is the only real collision and the 99% cause of rider two falling.
    4 You can guarantee these racing bicycles won’t have the required by legislation fitments of reflectors on pedals and wheels. The tyres will also be race spec and will have not for road (public) use stamped on side. So Lycra boys you can F off into sunset with your flimsy case.
    5 Likely that all of them will be running Strava app or similar on their phones tracking their rides. I’d file for seizure of that data in interests of establishing the riders typical behaviour on public roads.
    Also that data would be a case for having an unsanctioned race on public roads.
    Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket - Eric Hoffer

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    I agree with Pete’s comments, hope we get to hear final outcome.

    All the car driver is possibly guilty of is an improper manoeuvre or careless use, $150 fine at most.

    I freezexframe watched the vid a few times;

    1 lead cyclist observed hazard and reacts avoiding collision.
    2 Second cyclist is following too closely and probably relying solely on verbal warnings from lead rider as all he can prob see is number ones butt cheeks.
    3 third cyclist also not pay proper attention and clips the back wheel of second cyclist, if you watch clearly this is the only real collision and the 99% cause of rider two falling.
    4 You can guarantee these racing bicycles won’t have the required by legislation fitments of reflectors on pedals and wheels. The tyres will also be race spec and will have not for road (public) use stamped on side. So Lycra boys you can F off into sunset with your flimsy case.
    5 Likely that all of them will be running Strava app or similar on their phones tracking their rides. I’d file for seizure of that data in interests of establishing the riders typical behaviour on public roads.
    Also that data would be a case for having an unsanctioned race on public roads.
    The root cause is the driver pulling out. If that didnt happen, then nothing else would have. She should be charged.

    Group rides are dangerous, watch a Poker run etc. They often crash into each other.

    Most motorcycles have the factory reflectors removed from the forks, tail tidy's etc. There is no DOT requirement for bicycle tyres.

    So you have a ride App running all the time to prove you never speed or roll through stop signs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    The root cause is the driver pulling out. If that didnt happen, then nothing else would have. She should be charged.

    Group rides are dangerous, watch a Poker run etc. They often crash into each other.

    Most motorcycles have the factory reflectors removed from the forks, tail tidy's etc. There is no DOT requirement for bicycle tyres.

    So you have a ride App running all the time to prove you never speed or roll through stop signs?
    No because it’s not needed, that’s as absurd an idea as always being with someone as an alibi, perhaps one should walk around with a strawman in todays world ;p

    It’s an urban environment you’re going to get people pulling out of parking spaces. If there’s no collisions just the grind of city life. Just take roundabouts, at some stage we e all had to force a little gap in rush hour to keep moving that isn’t a 100% not failing to give way.

    We really need more info. She’s probably looked to see it was clear (no one wants to another by the rubbish truck or bus) then been focused perhaps in front of car getting past car parked in front. Meanwhile the Tour de France wannabes have just come steaming over a ride perhaps at a speed inconsistent with local traffic flow. A lot of these residential streets have speed limits less than 50.

    I keep my fork reflectors and with the tyres it may not matter if our law doesn’t specify, it’s superseded by the manufacturer stating what it’s safe use is for.
    Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket - Eric Hoffer

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Meanwhile the Tour de France wannabes have just come steaming over a ride perhaps at a speed inconsistent with local traffic flow. A lot of these residential streets have speed limits less than 50.
    I'll never forget the time, as a learner, religiously sticking to the 50 km/h speed limit, only to be overtaken by a bunch of cyclists whilst riding down a steep hill.



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