one last hug

[Ixion]

Assorted religious argument moved to the Scottish thread.

[ducatilover]

"Tip toe thru the tulips with me"
These are the original lyrics as transcribed from the original sheet music:
Shades of night are creeping, willow trees are weeping, old folks and babies are sleeping, silver Stars are gleaming, all alone I'm scheming, scheming to get you out here, my dear, come tip toe thru the window, by the window, that is where I'll be, come tip toe thru The tulips with me.
Tip toe from your pillow, to the shadow of a willow tree, and tip toe thru The tulips with me.
Knee deep in flowers we'll stray, we'll keep the showers away, and if I kiss you in the garden, in the moonlight, will you pardon me, come tip toe thru the tulips with me.
Come on out and pet me, come and Juliet me, tease me and slyly coquette me, let me romeo you, I Just want to show you, how much I'm willing to do for you, come tip toe to the window, by the window, that is where I'll be, come tip toe thru the tulips with me. Tip toe from your pillow, to the shadow of the willow tree, and tip toe thru the tulips with me.

[scumdog]

If I could "tweak" society - I'd come down hard on the young offenders - the "broken windows policy" NYC implemented, and I'd come down harder on repeat offenders. Crime is simply too attractive and the whole PC thing is WAAYYYY over the top (says he arguing for avoidance of capital punishment).

Lock 'em up, put them through hell, make prison an unattractive place to be and make society the attractive place to be.

You and me agree on this, juvenile offenders - well repeat ones - get bugger-all punishment, there is no consequence for their action (to a greater extent) and by the time they turn 17 they 'know the ropes' and turn into better criminals.
Some decide to straighten their act up as soon as they turn 17 since the know the ante has gone up a whole lot - and they piss me of too, taking advantage of a system that has less power than a putty bazooka.:spudgrr:

You don't molly-coddle a pup if you want it to grow into a good dog - young humans are no different!!

[Phurrball]

I think the problem in this country is that many sentances are far too light and the first reaction is to bring in the death penalty. Unfortunately the death penaly is not a deterent. There has been a number of studies where the death penalty has been in force and the murder rate has gone up.

I do not believe that prisoners deserve the same rights as victims but the reality is that they do have rights just not as many as you and I. Justice is not about rehabilitation nor is it about punishment and it certainly is not about revenge. Justice is about our rights that 's yours and mine. The system is not perfect and is more suited for the wealthy than the poor. It's designed to protect the innocent more than convict the guilty. As for learning from the third world I can't help but think of Idi Aman, Robert Mugabe, etc.

I once knew a guy who thought much like yourself, seems after his marrage broke up his ex got knocked about by her new boyfriend. She was so terrified of him that she said she was beaten up by her ex husband. Fact was no one believed him. It wasn't untill the day of his trial that the boyfriend had another go at the 'wife' and the 'truth came out. Those that preach what you preach soon change their mind about rights once theirr own rights have been violated. Oh it seems that some copper had a thing about wife beaters and bruised his balls. Claimed my friend was resistiang arrest. Consequently my friend does not think in the same manner.

Skyryder

Well said SR -

NZ does have one of the highest prison occupancy rates in the western world - I don't think it's achieving much personally. I'm glad you used a qualifier re the length of sentences - NZ these days hands out some beauty sentences these days - but not always. I agree with the comments made by Scumdog and MDU relating to juveniles...For the most part, we seem to take an all or nothing approach - the approach used on juvenile offenders jst doesn't work for many...then they arrive in 'Big boys' court. There doesn't seem to be an in-between.

(Phurrball takes a deep breath and primes for ducking...)

IMHO we could learn a from Tikanga Maori - Tikanga operates a strict liability system. If someone transgresses, then someone must make ammends [more like the tort of negligence = strict liability]. If the perpetrator is unwilling to make ammends, their family/community is held to account by way of utu or muru to restore balance. I imagine if applied to juvenile offenders, this model would bring about results ie if young 'Johnny' is a badass, then 'Johnny's' family/extended family gets to pay for the injury caused - no questions.

Tikanga is pretty good [from the little I've learned] at bringing people to account for their actions - on occasion to the extent of picking someone/ a group from a community as a scapegoat if the true perpetrator won't put their hand up...

Some reform of the way we treat juvenile offenders would seem to be necessary IMHO - the current system may be well intentioned, and work for some people, but oftentimes fails to bring the consequences of the offending to bear on the offender and those responsible for the offender.

My $0.02...

[mstriumph]

Well said SR -

NZ does have one of the highest prison occupancy rates in the western world - I don't think it's achieving much personally. ..............................

... except provide a black hole for taxpayer dollars, mebbe .......

(Phurrball takes a deep breath and primes for ducking...)

IMHO we could learn a from Tikanga Maori - Tikanga operates a strict liability system. If someone transgresses, then someone must make ammends [more like the tort of negligence = strict liability]. If the perpetrator is unwilling to make ammends, their family/community is held to account by way of utu or muru to restore balance. I imagine if applied to juvenile offenders, this model would bring about results ie if young 'Johnny' is a badass, then 'Johnny's' family/extended family gets to pay for the injury caused - no questions.

My $0.02...

sorta similar to the system i understand operated among the zulu prior to settlement of RSA .................. always thought how sensible it seemed.

Which is probably why it will never happen here - too sensible!!

[Lou Girardin]

T FIRST TASTE THAT GETS HER HOOKED.

Bovine excrement?
Hooked after one taste:slap:

This thread is glowing like Chernobel, from all the red necks posts.

[WINJA]

Bovine excrement?
Hooked after one taste:slap:

This thread is glowing like Chernobel, from all the red necks posts.

CMON , YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN , IT HAS TO START SOMEWHERE

[scumdog]

Bovine excrement?
Hooked after one taste:slap:

This thread is glowing like Chernobel, from all the red necks posts.

Nah, just a chance for decent people like you to figure a way to pay to keep murdering drop-kicks in prison alive while the rest of us rednecks that don't care if they die spend the money from our taxes that WOULD have kept them alive on more important stuff - like beer etc

You want them to stay alive? YOU pay for them - I sure as hell don't want to.

[Lou Girardin]

The reason I'm against the death sentence in nearly all cases is because of Arthur Allan Thomas, David Dougherty, the guy up north who was wrongly jailed for killing his girlfriend and to a lesser extent Barlow in Welly,David Tamihere and Scott Watson.
These people could all be dead now.
The cops and the courts will have to be a damn sight sharper before I'd agree with capital punishment in NZ.

[MikeL]

The cops and the courts will have to be a damn sight sharper before I'd agree with capital punishment in NZ.

Vocal advocates of capital punishment fall strangely silent when judicial error is mentioned. They can try to minimize its importance but they can't deny it. As I pointed out in my previous post, attempting to rationalize it as "collateral damage" or whatever is morally dodgy. The proponents of the death penalty should at least have the honesty to state what they believe: that that the odd mistake is unfortunate but an acceptable price to pay, and thereby show that expediency, not right and wrong, is the issue.

[ManDownUnder]

...The proponents of the death penalty should at least have the honesty to state what they believe: that that the odd mistake is unfortunate but an acceptable price to pay, and thereby show that expediency, not right and wrong, is the issue.

succinctly put - and I think that is the crux of it.

I see that as an unacceptable price to pay.

I also hold a point of view that it's not the right of anyone (or anything) to take the life of another in a premeditated manner.

[oldrider]

succinctly put - and I think that is the crux of it.

I see that as an unacceptable price to pay.

I also hold a point of view that it's not the right of anyone (or anything) to take the life of another in a premeditated manner.

The risk in Capital punishment is that the proposer becomes in fact worse than the offender.
(State murder is worse than random murder. IMO)
We become what we oppose, is that what we want?
The young man in question made a foolish choice, that was his calculated risk. He got it sooooh wrong. John.

[scumdog]

The reason I'm against the death sentence in nearly all cases is because of Arthur Allan Thomas, David Dougherty, the guy up north who was wrongly jailed for killing his girlfriend and to a lesser extent Barlow in Welly,David Tamihere and Scott Watson.
These people could all be dead now.
The cops and the courts will have to be a damn sight sharper before I'd agree with capital punishment in NZ.

Got to agree with you in principle Lou - but how would you feel if there was a catagory that fitted mandatory death sentence? Like there were independant witnesses and their was such linking evidence combined with a confession, e.g. the guy that stabbed his ex to death on front of a dozen witnesses in a park? Or that guy Bailey down here - no mistake with him.

The circumstancial one (Scott Watson et al) are a different catagory.

[SPman]

The trouble is - nearly all murders are spur of the moment - not actually planned, thought out and executed.
Drug couriering in many cases is an act of desperation and stupidity. The death penalty has rarely been a deterrent, because people act first and may think about consequences later - when its far too late. In drug courier cases, the people they they SHOULD be executing, are the bankers, who launder the drug money, the politicians who fraternise and encourage the drug lords, the people who are making real money out of it - not the poor schmucks who are killing themselves anyway, using and dealing in drugs. Its like killing individual ants when the only way to kill the hive is to kill the queen !
The small time couriers and dealers are fully expendable and a token sop to the public at large by politcians to make the appearance of them doing something.

[Lou Girardin]

Got to agree with you in principle Lou - but how would you feel if there was a catagory that fitted mandatory death sentence? Like there were independant witnesses and their was such linking evidence combined with a confession, e.g. the guy that stabbed his ex to death on front of a dozen witnesses in a park? Or that guy Bailey down here - no mistake with him.

The circumstancial one (Scott Watson et al) are a different catagory.

There are some circumstances where the offender has to be removed from society for keeps. The ones you mentioned, Taffy Jones who killed Kylie Jones as she walked home from work and there's been others.
Real life terms or capital punishment - no problem.