Mugged.

**Wolf** · 12th December 2005, 14:49

Originally Posted by spudchucka

If you in fact used the hammer in your pocket as a weapon to defend yourself then you would have to answer as to why you had a hammer in your pocket in a public place in the first place. You would need a good excuse as there is no defence for carrying such an item with the intention of using it as a weapon, even if it was only intended to be used in self defence. I'm not suggesting that this was the case with you, just highlighting how things can be perceived in certain circumstances.

Someone once told me to keep a hand saw in the bedroom along with a few bits of shelving. The hand saw makes an effective weapon and people would think twice about trying to grab at it to take it off you and the defence line is that you had the saw in your bedroom as you had been putting up shelves and when the attacker entered you grabbed the nearest weapon to hand...

Of course, you go around dispensing that kind of advice and actually use it at any stage, the prosecution lawyer at your trial will drag onto the stand everyone to whom you have dispensed said "wisdom" and they can testify that you kept saw and timber in your room to furnish a weapon and a "reason". Your trial will start going badly for you from that point onward. Kinda like those in the States who advocated keeping a cheap firearm on hand to plant on anyone they shot when lethal force was not truly justified. Advocate it loudly enough and it will come up at your murder trial - ultimate irony would be that the guy really was armed when you shot him but all your acquaintances firmly believe you planted the gun...

If the attacker is unarmed you may not use a weapon even if he is three times your mass and an experienced street fighter. If he has a weapon you can use a similar weapon but you've then got to have a bloody good reason as to why you had a weapon on you. If you have firearms they must be stored disassembled under separate lock and key and the same applies when you're transporting them. The only chance you have of protecting yourself with a firearm is if you're attacked by an armed assailant while out hunting...
If you've got time and opporotunity to assemble and load your firearm you were not in immediate danger of your life and it could be argued that yu could have better used the time and opportunity to sneak out of your house and call the cops from the safety of your neighbour's house.

Face it, if you are going to kill someone in self defence, you'd better be prepared to kill them with your bare hands.

**spudchucka** · 12th December 2005, 15:42

Originally Posted by Marmoot

shite.....thank's for the advice.

I asume that if I was "mending my fence at the time they came to me" then it would be justified (strictly hypothetically speaking for my understanding).

Yes that helps very much. I'll stick to pen in my pocket.

If you were on your property and was mending a fence at the time then that is a very plausible excuse for possession of the hammer at that time, you weren't carrying it at that time with the intention of using it as a weapon.

It would be very much an issue if you were walking down the street, (in a public place), with the hammer in your possession and then used it as a weapon to defend yourself.

**Wolf** · 12th December 2005, 15:48

Now, how do you convince the buggers to only attack you while you're fixing the fence? They'd have to be pretty dense - I'm certain I wouldn't wander 'round the place giving shit to random people who're holding hammers in their hands...

**spudchucka** · 12th December 2005, 15:50

Originally Posted by Wolf

Face it, if you are going to kill someone in self defence, you'd better be prepared to kill them with your bare hands.

Firstly your intention can't be to kill them. If you form that intent you are guilty of murder. You intent can only be to stop them from doing whatever action it is that is harming you. If the only way open to you to stop the attacker is to use a weapon, then you use a weapon. If the attacker dies as a result of you using the weapon to halt their attack on you then you can't be found guilty of murder so long as the level of force used was reasonable in the circumstances.

Secondly if you are being thrashed by a giant to the point that you believe your life is in danger you would be justified in using a weapon to defend yourself even if the attacker was using their bare hands. If you are being strangled by somebody twice your size are you going to just choke to death whishing you were big enough to defend yourself? Of course not, you will use whatever means is available to you to stop the attack.

**Wolf** · 12th December 2005, 15:59

Originally Posted by spudchucka

Firstly your intention can't be to kill them. If you form that intent you are guilty of murder. You intent can only be to stop them from doing whatever action it is that is harming you. If the only way open to you to stop the attacker is to use a weapon, then you use a weapon. If the attacker dies as a result of you using the weapon to halt their attack on you then you can't be found guilty of murder so long as the level of force used was reasonable in the circumstances.

Secondly if you are being thrashed by a giant to the point that you believe your life is in danger you would be justified in using a weapon to defend yourself even if the attacker was using their bare hands. If you are being strangled by somebody twice your size are you going to just choke to death whishing you were big enough to defend yourself? Of course not, you will use whatever means is available to you to stop the attack.

Thanks for that. I was always of the understanding that "reasonable force" meant no weapons if you're being attacked by an unarmed person.

**Skyryder** · 12th December 2005, 18:01

Originally Posted by idb

You're either going to fight back or you're not.

There are other places that are effective that do not kill. Most fights I've won by talking the other guy out of it. If the prick wants to rock'nroll go punch him in the balls. Even if you miss his instinctive reaction is to back off. But if you don't have the attitude..............run. No one gets hurt that way.

Skyryder

**idb** · 12th December 2005, 18:53

Originally Posted by Skyryder

There are other places that are effective that do not kill. Most fights I've won by talking the other guy out of it. If the prick wants to rock'nroll go punch him in the balls. Even if you miss his instinctive reaction is to back off. But if you don't have the attitude..............run. No one gets hurt that way.

Skyryder

I'm not skilled enough to know what can kill or can't.
If it ever got to the point where I had to stand and fight (I've never been in a situation that I haven't been able to talk my out of - except once when I legged it) I'd be thrashing about in all directions with any resources at hand - stuff the consequences to the other party.

**geoffm** · 12th December 2005, 20:08

Originally Posted by spudchucka

Secondly if you are being thrashed by a giant to the point that you believe your life is in danger you would be justified in using a weapon to defend yourself even if the attacker was using their bare hands. If you are being strangled by somebody twice your size are you going to just choke to death whishing you were big enough to defend yourself? Of course not, you will use whatever means is available to you to stop the attack.

Or moer succinctly "it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6..."
How things play out in the courtroom a year later (after you have been locked up with Bubba for that time as well) is a whole different situation than at 3am in the morning. Self defence is effectively illegal in NZ, simply due to the cost of defence makes it unfeasible.
G

**Bulldog** · 12th December 2005, 20:38

I've done various training, boxing, kung fu etc, the best training though is full contact sparring. You have to have felt a punch or strike to really be prepared and be able to avoid / counter.

Everyone should get into self defense classes of some sort if only to be prepared.

Good self defense classes will teach you a direct approach rather than forms and the likes like in kung fu. Remember the key areas, eyes, groin, throat, knees (oh the knees hurt good).

Most dickheads come in with haymakers always swinging for the head....sad. You can generally always block them by holding your arms up close to your face, then quickly counter while they're in between punches and or kick them down low while they're punching (keep your guard up). It will become simple in your head if you train so get into a class and next time it happens you'll fuck over the first guy with a throat punch and kick the next guy's nuts. Then you can bail while they recover.....Don't hang around to get some more beats in cause you'll just get fired up and wreck yourself.

I fucken hate low life pricks like that. We should set a trap.

**Marmoot** · 12th December 2005, 20:42

Originally Posted by Bulldog

I fucken hate low life pricks like that. We should set a trap.

yea. In where I came from they normally get carried away by firefighters instead of cops. They often get burnt alive when caught by mob. That's how sick the society was at low-lifes. But, hey, we never heard the cops complained either

(sad that it's funny but true)

**DogBreath** · 12th December 2005, 20:56

Originally Posted by Dafe

I'll fight back if I have to. I think you're missing the point.
I'm saying that I won't deliver the kind of attack "NhuanH" pointed out. i.e. upwards driving palm heel to base of nose very effective
nor would I go for his ripping out the throat via a C-Grip option.
These both seemed abit extreme to me!

Sorry fella, while not advocating violence at all, if you are gonna resist at all its all or nothing, half pie will leave you bloodied and broken. If you can hit, then hit and run, if you can't then just run, failing that you have to take it and kiss the $80 goodbye.
Like someone said earlier, these guys are feral, so trying to take on two on your own is seriously uphill.
If you have never hit anyone, this is no time to learn.
If you have fear going out, if dark corners make you nervous, the bastards have won.
If you have a few bucks spare, go to a self defence course.
My son fronted a couple of dicks on the way home recently, the shithead had his finger pointing in his jacket and he said he had a gun, hand over the cash...
Young fella figured this dickheads hand was busy, so whacked him in the teeth and ran like fuck. Seemed to work, they didn't catch him. LOL
(Err, sorry about the hjack...)

**Dafe** · 12th December 2005, 21:03

Originally Posted by DogBreath

Sorry fella, while not advocating violence at all, if you are gonna resist at all its all or nothing, half pie will leave you bloodied and broken. If you can hit, then hit and run, if you can't then just run, failing that you have to take it and kiss the $80 goodbye.
Like someone said earlier, these guys are feral, so trying to take on two on your own is seriously uphill.
If you have never hit anyone, this is no time to learn.
If you have fear going out, if dark corners make you nervous, the bastards have won.
If you have a few bucks spare, go to a self defence course.
My son fronted a couple of dicks on the way home recently, the shithead had his finger pointing in his jacket and he said he had a gun, hand over the cash...
Young fella figured this dickheads hand was busy, so whacked him in the teeth and ran like fuck. Seemed to work, they didn't catch him. LOL
(Err, sorry about the hjack...)

Apology Accepted!

Did you read my post about my incident in Porirua last week?
I didn't do a runner..... I stood my ground, purely because I was curious as to what would occur.
In the end, the Mongrel Mob dude and I went our own way! Sometimes, standing up to aggressors gets you a long way dude! They're normally quite cowardice, hence why they attack in numbers.

**Marmoot** · 12th December 2005, 21:04

Originally Posted by Dynamytus50

Sorry to hear about it man....

we have had heaps of aggravated robberies (muggings) in town lately...there has been a huge leap in them.

Often shitheads will cruise in from out south; agg robb someone; and get straight back on the motorway south. By the time we get there with our dwindling resources they are often gone.

In saying that i have caught my fair share of them in my time.

Hope you get well soon, being robbed is a horrible feeling

yeah Dy, understandable.
I got burgled on 3rd. Then yesterday there was an old battered Holden with 4 teenagers that I have never seen in this neighbourhood (the guys and the car) just got in front of my place when I was getting home. Stared at me and my house for a few seconds. Then I got out of my car and they started getting out too. Sensing something was wrong then I kindly got into my car again and restarted it to stroll around the block and stop by before the corner. Peeked around the corner and saw the car went away.

Definitely something was wrong. (and that was why I got out of my car carrying a hammer)

**spudchucka** · 13th December 2005, 07:32

Originally Posted by Wolf

Thanks for that. I was always of the understanding that "reasonable force" meant no weapons if you're being attacked by an unarmed person.

What is reasonable is dependant on the circumstances as they are and the circumstances as the person belives them to be. As I said before, if you are getting strangled to death by a giant and you can't defend yourself without using a weapon of some sort, then so be it, the use of a weapon is definately reasonable in the circumstances.

Always remember the words, "its better to be tried by twelve than carried by six"!