I crash too much

**madboy** · 4th January 2006, 13:15

Much along the same lines as previous posts here, Pathos, the road craft is as important or more so than the bike craft. I ride 3-400k a week, much of that commuting, in all weather, and I can assure you I take a lot more risks that most. Lane-splitting, speeding (not 150 speeding, but 636 speeding), tailgating, overtaking, undertaking, you name it. And yet the only bin I've had was completely self inflicted caused by excessive use of right wrist when unfamiliar with a bike with twice as much horsepower. Don't join that club.

It's unfair, and possibly hypocritical, of us to judge you with the very very limited understanding we have of your riding skills and bins. My advice is DON'T upgrade your bike. Catch a ride with one of the local Hamilton KB crew and get an idea of their thought process as much as their riding styles.

Then buy a K6 1000

**R1** · 4th January 2006, 14:53

Get a bigger bike and run slicks, youll be fine

**Pathos** · 4th January 2006, 15:04

Originally Posted by Strat

Why did you post this. To stop crashing or to say you got big nads and dont care if you crash or not.

The former. I hate crashing. I want to buy a fireblade one day and not have to ride it like a granny.

Madboy you're the only one who really has made any sense so far. I usually don't do anything stupid around other vechicles I ride mildly hard out of town but always within the bikes limits. Upgrading the bike give my more guts up the hills, I'm not gonna try go round corners 50kmph faster suddenly, I can do that aready.

Its just a pain that a little bad luck and you can be looking at a $4000+ bill.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 4th January 2006, 15:47

is your bike insured?? if so it is a write off....... seriously. The cost of the new fairings ou need are waaaaay more than what the bikes worth. not to mention the muffler and tank. Would it not be a bad idea to get it written off?? start on a new canvas?

just my $0.02

**madboy** · 4th January 2006, 15:58

Originally Posted by Pathos

Its just a pain that a little bad luck and you can be looking at a $4000+ bill.

Yeah, that's true. But making your own luck comes from keeping a damn good eye on what's going on out there. Seriously, assume every f***er wants a piece of your ass, you'll live longer.

**TonyB** · 4th January 2006, 16:42

Originally Posted by Pathos

The former. I hate crashing. I want to buy a fireblade one day and not have to ride it like a granny.

Madboy you're the only one who really has made any sense so far. I usually don't do anything stupid around other vechicles I ride mildly hard out of town but always within the bikes limits. Upgrading the bike give my more guts up the hills, I'm not gonna try go round corners 50kmph faster suddenly, I can do that aready.

Its just a pain that a little bad luck and you can be looking at a $4000+ bill.

So what you seem to be saying, (and I could be misreading your posts), is that it's not your fault, you haven't done anything wrong and clearly the bike is the cause of all your crashes???

I'm gonna try this one more time. I have had three road accidents and one track crash. My first road crash was on my first long road trip- Chch to Nelson. At one of the one way bridges on the north side of the Lewis Pass I saw what I thought was a patch of shiney tar on a corner. Being INEXPERIENCED I rode over it- it was oil from blown engine. I ended up doing some road surfing. The oil shouldn't have been there, but the fact is that it was and with more experience I wouldn't have ridden over it. Therefore the accident was MY FAULT. With more experience I could have avoided this crash. Fat tyres and more power will do NOTHING if you're dumb enough to ride over a slippery surface...

Road accident number two happened the morning after buying my second bike. The first one was an RZ250 (quick 2 stroke), the second one was an FZ400R (inline 4, 4 stroke). I dumped it in some ice on a roundabout. Again, this accident was avoidable- caused by a lack of experience both on the 4 stroke (they have engine braking, which is what made me fall) and at reading the road.

Road accident number three happened when I allowed the icy conditions at an intersection to distract me. I didn't notice that an HQ Holden was running a red light. I turned in front of him and was hit very hard, flush on the left hand side. Again, I could have avoided this by being less distracted and more aware.

The racing accident happened when I was trying to hold Dangerous off at the hairpin at Levels. I pushed the front end too hard and it let go with a bang. I had already been fighting front end slides, but since D was about to get past I pushed even harder and paid the price. I should have known better.

Keith Code reckons that nearly all crashes can be attributed to rider error. I've never seen you ride, as Madboy says you may be really good at riding, but if you are still making fundamental mistakes with reading the road and judging traffic, then a bigger bike is just going to mean a bigger mess.

**Pathos** · 4th January 2006, 17:31

Ok accident 1 I couldn't avoid, the greasy crap had been spread all over the road by cars. I saw a bigger bike (with bigger tyres) pass through without a problem.

The 2nd was because I didn't check the road yes my fault but I do think larger tyres could have helped.

The 3rd was because I was stupid.

But I said : Its a light bike and the tyres are skinny which I don't think helped much in any of my crashes.

not that they caused the accident.

I really want bigger tyres because the fxrs ones just don't have a big enough foot print when you've got it leaning over. A gsx's front tyre is bigger than my rear.

**Pathos** · 4th January 2006, 17:35

Originally Posted by RG100!!

is your bike insured?? if so it is a write off....... seriously. The cost of the new fairings ou need are waaaaay more than what the bikes worth. not to mention the muffler and tank. Would it not be a bad idea to get it written off?? start on a new canvas?

just my $0.02

it was insured for $1650 and the quote was $3000 damage.

They were only going to give me a grand after the excess and wouldn't give me first choice to buy it back. Plus I would have to reinsure my new bike. I couldn't find anything I could afford that was mechanically better so I kept it and it cost me $30 to put it back on the road.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 4th January 2006, 19:48

hey.... i think you are getting a misconception about the size of tyres.

the FXR ones are great, they are a perfect size for a little bike. If bigger tyres were soo much better then the 125 GP bikes would have big tires, but they dont. The tyres on the 125 GP bikes (93 RS125 for example) have a tyres size only marginally lager than the FXR 150. I am running RS125 tyres on my FXR and work a dream. Normally the bigger the tyre, the larger the bike, the more of a bitch it is to keep it upright.

Sweet dude and keep on truckin'

Cheers, Glenn

**Ixion** · 4th January 2006, 20:15

You are thinking like a cager. Bikes are different. On a bike the narrower the tyre the better it will handle and the more you'll hold to the road. Think about it. What's the difference between a bike and a car? Bikes lean over, right. Think about a wide car tyre . Nice and flat on the road. , Now imagine tipping it on it's edge, like a bike tyre has to do. Think it would have much grip? Right!

And you only need to worry about grip when leaned over. If you get into trouble when dead upright, that's pure inexperience.

The only reasons that bigger bikes have bigger tyres is (a) they weigh more and small tyres would exceed their weight limit; and (b) the tyre has to be able to handle the considerable eat generated at high speeds (maybe up to 300kph)- a small tyre would overheat and burst; and (c) the horsepower that they have to transmit would shred a little tyre. That's why big bikes (almost) always have narrower front tyres than the rears . The rear has to put down the horsepower. It has to be big. The designers don't WANT it big, but they have no choice. On the front they only have to worry about weight (including inertial transfer under braking) - and maybe heat. So they can make the tyre narrower. If big tyres were better, they'd put big ones on the front too.

You will NOT get better roadholding or handling on a bike by fitting bigger tyres.

(I'm aware that this is a bit simplified - there are other factors, but the basic premise is what I'm driving at )

**Pathos** · 4th January 2006, 22:45

Originally Posted by Ixion

You are thinking like a cager. Bikes are different. On a bike the narrower the tyre the better it will handle and the more you'll hold to the road. Think about it. What's the difference between a bike and a car? Bikes lean over, right. Think about a wide car tyre . Nice and flat on the road. , Now imagine tipping it on it's edge, like a bike tyre has to do. Think it would have much grip? Right!

Um no... Motorcycle tyres are round no matter what size they are. The bigger the tyre the bigger the footprint on the road the more rubber in contact.

In a straight line they're fine it cornering that I worry about especially because the tire surface is a lot steeper and more likely to slide out.

**Mooch** · 5th January 2006, 01:30

Originally Posted by Pathos

Um no... Motorcycle tyres are round no matter what size they are. The bigger the tyre the bigger the footprint on the road the more rubber in contact.

In a straight line they're fine it cornering that I worry about especially because the tire surface is a lot steeper and more likely to slide out.

Mate, some people get it, you clearly don’t. People in this thread have given you good advice but it doesn't seem to be getting through. I think it's going to be your attitude that going to hold you back and lead to more cashes. Bigger tyres / new bikes won't fix this. Crashing must be the hardest way of learning. Hopefully there's someone up your way that can give you a bit of mentoring. You clearly enjoy motorcycling and enjoy the speed (quote 147kmh) but from your posts most of us are pointing out that you need to build up your skill and experience levels and stop blaming the tools.

**Pathos** · 5th January 2006, 10:15

I probably am blaming the tools too much but someone please explain how a smaller tyre has more grip???

Yeah I know its harder to handle because of the gyriscopic affects.

**Ixion** · 5th January 2006, 11:35

The complete technical answer to the "why" of that question needs an expert far more expert than I.

But, in simple terms, you have already identifed the answer, when you said that "Motorcycle tyres are round no matter what size they are". No, they're not (go look at the rear tyre of something like an FJR1300).

But, ideally, they WOULD be. In a perfect world our tyres would have a semicircular cross section. But in the real world, they can't make them like that . Look at a big bike tyre and you'll see that (like a car tyre) it has a shoulder on each side , then a "top" bit, rounded to a greater or lesser extent. It's actually a malformed "U" cross section. The smaller the tyre the more rounded the "top" bit and the smaller the shoulder, the closer it approaches to the ideal hemicircle.

The semicircular cross section is the ideal because it most readily deforms under the weight of the bike, and the cornering forces. Imagine a big car tyre. It's sort of two "vertical" walls, and a flat bit, right? Now imagine tipping it over at 45 degress and pushing down on it, trying to make the "corner" that's now on the road "flatten out" and form a contact patch. It's not going to "flatten" easily because the "corner" is very resistent to deformation (has to be or the tyre would just "ooze" sideways). And when it does, the contact patch will be small, because of those "vertical" walls. Now imagine a pure half round tyre. Imagine leaning that over at 45 degrees . Won't actually make any difference how many degrees it is, it's all the same on a pure half round, but we'll stick with 45 degrees. Now imagine pushing down on it. That half round is going to "squash" and "flatten out" much more easily than the "corner" on the wide tyre. So that the REAL contact patch , the one that is dynamically created by the cornering forces, is likely to be greater on a smaller tyre (obviously, there are some limits!). And the contact patch will adapt more eaily to change than the "U shaped" big tyre.

Ideally, of course if they could make wider tyres that were still half rounds that would give the best contact patch. But (a) they can't and (b) wide tyres introduce all sorts of other issues with the physics of motorcycling cornering.

If you really believe that big tyres are needed for adhesion, go to a bucket race meet and watch the 50cc bikes. They have teeny tiny tyres and they will be leaning over to degrees that you (genuinely) will not believe possible. Far far further over than any 1000cc with its big tyres.

It is a given amongst experienced motorcylists, that, other factors being equal, a small bike will always be faster through a corner than a big bike - until the exit anyway, when the power of the bike bike may compensate for its slower cornering.

I very seriously doubt that anyone other than a racer would lean an FXR150 ON DECENT (SMALL) TYRES far enough for it to lose grip. I make the qualification about decent tyres, because I understand that the FXR when new has shitty cheap tyres. Not shitty because they are small but because they are made of plastic or something and don't have good grip.

I'm quite certain that if you're crashing it's nothing to do with your tyres. A bigger bike with bigger tyres, you'll just crash more often, and harder.