Why are licence tests available in Maori?

**Mr. Peanut** · 8th January 2006, 12:44

Maori is cool, it gives us a sense of cultural identity. So it is worth learning. But really, what proportion of kiwis speak maori exclusively? Would it not just be cheaper to hire them a translator, if and when needed? It has been estimated that around 50,000 people of maori decent speak maori fluently. Thats 1.25% of the population. Of that 1.25% how many cannot speak english?

Does this justity spending vast sums of money on bilingual documents, most of which are not needed? If you were maori where would you stand? Wouldn't you rather have better funding for schools and education?

**Mr. Peanut** · 8th January 2006, 12:54

Originally Posted by Jim2

What's the point of teaching Maori? "It was never a written language anyway". Neither were the prototypical languages that resulted in English....Things change. Get over it. Darwin said something along the lines that it isn't the fittest organism that survives, but the one most adaptable to change....Within the next 150 years all people born in NZ will have a scrap of Maori DNA, and most likely some Asian DNA as well....Why is physical science SOOOO much more important to the Post-Modern, European/US derived mindset? Why is human culture viewed as a "lesser" science?... "Yes I can destroy this village/town/country/culture/continent, but SHOULD I?"....These little differences are what make us a vital, growing, learning, global culture... it establishes a mindset that enables you to learn more, to investigate and evaluate the syntax of a language medium, so you can exhange ideas with other people.

I never questioned the value of teaching maori, I support it. I think you're missing my point? nice rant though..

**ajturbo** · 8th January 2006, 12:55

Originally Posted by Phurrball

My $0.02. Now, back to hugs and smiles and going out for a ride...I would - were my bike not 1500km away

i would be out also... but after ariving home with a slow leaking rear tyre.. i not want tha hassell.......

**mstriumph** · 8th January 2006, 13:07

.... disregarding the entrenched opinion from either side ....... from the middle ground this question appears to be one of economics rather than the cultural validity of either [or any] language

i have lived in wales ---------- official documentation, road signs, etc in welsh and english
i have lived in south africa ------- ditto ditto afrikaans and english

as both te reo and english are the official languages of nz [and both have historical and emotional validity in context] i, personally, would prefer to see all documentation, road signs in BOTH and all children being raised/educated in both .............................. until that is adopted and energetically/pursued as official policy it does seem to me that doing "a little bit of this, a tad of that .. perhaps, mebbe" DOES smack of tokenism - which [again, my opinion only] is both expensive, paternalistic and insulting

**Mr. Peanut** · 8th January 2006, 13:15

Originally Posted by mstriumph

this question appears to be one of economics rather than the cultural validity of either [or any] language

Yup. But in NZ you're not allowed to question anything.

**marty** · 8th January 2006, 13:35

Originally Posted by mstriumph

.... disregarding the entrenched opinion from either side ....... from the middle ground this question appears to be one of economics rather than the cultural validity of either [or any] language

i have lived in wales ---------- official documentation, road signs, etc in welsh and english
i have lived in south africa ------- ditto ditto afrikaans and english

as both te reo and english are the official languages of nz [and both have historical and emotional validity in context] i, personally, would prefer to see all documentation, road signs in BOTH and all children being raised/educated in both .............................. until that is adopted and energetically/pursued as official policy it does seem to me that doing "a little bit of this, a tad of that .. perhaps, mebbe" DOES smack of tokenism - which [again, my opinion only] is both expensive, paternalistic and insulting

so where do you start? television? newspapers? school?

**scumdog** · 8th January 2006, 13:49

As long as I can learn Maori because it's ME that wants to - NOT because it's rammed down my throat I'll be happy.

**Waylander** · 8th January 2006, 13:53

Have everything printed in two languages and all children taught to speak both in school? Are you peaple nuts!! Why the hell would you want to give the government more excuses to add to the tax rate.

And as for the Maori population growing.... as far as I'm aware of, there are no pure blooded Maori left. Just half breeds or quarter breeds or whatever (no offense meant in that as I am a mutt myself) The only reason he population is growing is because anyone who is 1/16th Maori can claim to be so and be entiteld to handouts from the government so more and more are doing so.

**SPman** · 8th January 2006, 14:05

Originally Posted by MrPeanut

Yup. But in NZ you're not allowed to question anything.

All the more reason to question "everything"...

Bring to the surface all that is uncomfortable, divisive, unfair, wrong......
while things lay in dark places, unheeded, they fester like untreated wounds......but.....thats another thread............

so where do you start? television? newspapers? school?

Already started in the schools.... if this is honestly treated, problem'll be solved within 15 years
.. but - immediately? simple -
hold a referendum, obtain a mandate from the people [just for the spending money bit - am assuming there's already overwhelming support for official bilingualism],
establish a budget and, starting with the most visible things, JUST DO IT!!
mstriumph [aka nike

]

**madboy** · 8th January 2006, 14:09

Bold statements there Waylander, and there's bound to be a few people on this site who will be offended. Suckers, truth hurts.

Too many bros doing too f***ing little thinking "we" taxpayers owe them too f***ing much. I am strongly against Bro TV, driver licensing in Maori and any other form of specialist treatment for them. Bugger all of them read/write/speak English, let alone Te Reo. First they should concentrate on that, then worry about adding a 2nd language.

The little f***ers ate the Maoriori (is that how youspell it?) who got here before them anyway. They should sit back and be thankful the brits turned up and didn't f***ing eat/shoot/kill them too. Instead they feel they've got a right to hold the descendants (and the other few million who WEREN'T descendants of the people who signed the treaty) to ransom.

Licenses in two languages - complete waste of MY taxes.

My 2c.

**SPman** · 8th January 2006, 14:12

Originally Posted by scumdog

As long as I can learn Maori because it's ME that wants to - NOT because it's rammed down my throat I'll be happy.

Thats fine - but if you teach it from pre school - it becomes second nature to most of that generation - (the new, upcoming one) and its not such a big issue. Also, people who grow up with 2 (or more) languages, have a far higher capability of learning even more.
For us old farts - we're basically f**ked!

**Waylander** · 8th January 2006, 14:59

Originally Posted by SPman

Thats fine - but if you teach it from pre school - it becomes second nature to most of that generation - (the new, upcoming one) and its not such a big issue.

But then arrises the problem of them being too young to tell the difference between the two and they begin to use some words from on language and other from the other, then no one can understand them. It's happening with the Mexican-American population all throughout the south west states.

**Phurrball** · 8th January 2006, 15:44

Originally Posted by SimJen

Why should we all have a working knowledge of it????
Noone has the right to force kids to learn a language of limited use. In my English schooling (many years ago) we learnt a fair bit of french and german because it was actually useful for those who chose to go to europe.
Maori is of absolutely no use to the general NZ public, or the rest of the world for that matter. Its not going to help if you go overseas and its not going to be of much help in NZ either unless you choose to teach it and then you'd need a very good understanding of it (more than would be taught in schools).
Sure its good for the language to be spoken by the people that want to speak it and for them or whoever to teach it to their kids but why should it be compulsory? is it to help the language to grow so statistically they can get it taught and included more and more......
Its like the Jehovah's or whoever trying to force their religion on you.

Not really. The bottom line is that you don't have to accept a state religion. Some things are state sanctioned and difficult to avoid. You can use alternatives - but it won't be easy. Of all the languages in the world we have two official languages. You can use others to your hearts content. No matter what you think - you can avoid neither Maori nor the English language in this country. You could try, but like using an alternative currency, it would be difficult.

WRT 'race' - there are probably no so-called 'pureblooded' anyone left anywhere. A language is a seperate and evolving entity that overlays human culture. The genetic status of a 'race' is no arbiter of the validity of a language. As people grow up with language they will learn its appropriate usage. (Think English strong verbs - "I drawed a picture" We grow out of inappropriate usage)

Language can be viewed as like biodiversity. Most would agree that forms of life evolved/were created [strike out as appropriate] in a specific location to fill a niche. Likewise with language in a cultural sense. Most would probably further agree that preservation of biodiversity is a laudable aim. I suggest that it should be likewise with language. There are many endangered languages in the world today. If utility was the only factor in deciding whether preserving an endangered plant/animal was worthwhile, we'd live in a pretty sorry world today.

As language overlays cultures and places, it should be viewed in a broader sense. Imagine if you will that English has come to this beautiful land in some senses like mammals have. Neither belong. (I appreciate this analogy is OTT, but bear with me...) English has supplanted the local Reo in the same way that mammals have supplanted many of NZ's indigenous fauna.

Excuse me for being flowery and emotive, but te Reo Maori belongs with this land just like kiwi belong in our forests. They were here as a part of this place. It shouldn't be marginalised and end up going the way of the huia. It just belongs with this land - we as inhabitants need to acknowledge this regardless of our background. Maori language is a cultural part of this place, so there is a necessary connection to us all as inhabitants - bigger for some, smaller for others.

The utility of Maori may arguably be little in and of itself (I disagree personally - any language can do a job - just like any bike. They all have strengths and weaknesses). Utility is not the point. Maori is a pacific language, and follows similar rules to other related languages - as such, learning the language cannot be viewed in isolation. Think of the relationships between Spanish, Italian, Portugese, and other romance languages - learning Maori is like learning one of those WRT pacific languages - you learn about the mechanics of related languages by default. (See - it is useful in more than just isolation!)

Noone likes compulsion. But compulsion has its place. Imagine if we decided not to stop for red traffic signals...compulsion can achieve a 'big picture' aim over time better than piecemeal adoption can. I agree that the horse has bolted for those of us already through the school system. Any problems will be gone in a generation: Think how easily first generation kiwi kids pick up the accent and lingo at school - even if their parents speak a different language at home. Imagine how easily they'll pick up te Reo at school.

Us oldies will survive. English isn't going away as an official language. Nor will it for future generations I daresay. Our predominantly monolingusitic schooling system deosn't look good held up against many european models, or even somewhere like Singapore. Voluntary pickup is still there for us - we all manage to show an interest in what our kids learn at school - even if our proficiency in said subject pales in comparison to that of our child.

What's the threat in having more Maori language out there? Really? Please some one tell me? It's an officlal language of this land FFS! I appreciate the economic arguments WRT printing every official state document in 2 languages. The economic arguments are probably sound. You could argue almost anything through the narrow prism of economics while ignoring the bigger picture. Try this for size - motorcyclists are injured more severly in accidents and therefore they should pay a higher ACC levy as part of their vehicle licensing. Bang on in terms of economics - I'm sure that die-hard never-to-ride cagers think this is a great idea. I don't think I need to mention the big picture relating to this wee piece of economic logic in this company...remember that other economic arguments have a flipside you may not have thought of.

Righto. That'll do for that post. Phew.