Another proper England rant...

**MSTRS:Me** · 19th January 2006, 15:43

Originally Posted by Jackrat

shouldnt this thread of been moved to pointless drivel where it belongs by now

Shouldn't this thread have been moved to Pointless Drivel, where it belongs, by now?
Corrected - OK?
And....probably.

**idb** · 19th January 2006, 16:22

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Fora -- Gahhhh!!! Users of pig Latin shall verily get their ba kicked.

Well!!!
According to no less an authority than the Merriam-Webster dictionary fora and forums are both acceptable.
This is confirmed on any number of sites purporting to be authorities on English it should be speaked.

So it would also be acceptable to kick our bums.

**Phurrball** · 19th January 2006, 16:24

Originally Posted by idb

OK, I'll be the first to the plate.
Shouldn't that read ".......'Til that day......." as an abbreviation of "....Until that day....."?

Apparently they are acceptable variants of each other. But I agree - the version with the elissive apostrophe does seem more true to its etymological origins. Well spotted. I shall change the offending item.

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Fora -- Gahhhh!!! Users of pig Latin shall verily get their ba kicked.

Hitcher - Never, ever sit in on any law lectures or tutorials. The abuse perpetrated by students and lecturers alike upon the Latin language would surely be the end of you, and your kicking leg. (The assorted abuse of English would not aid your wellbeing either.)

What should we lowly, non-classically schooled personages use as a plural of 'Forum'? Please inform us so that your sensibilities may be soothed by its appropriate usage.

Originally Posted by idb

Well!!!
According to no less an authority than the Merriam-Webster dictionary fora and forums are both acceptable.
This is confirmed on any number of sites purporting to be authorities on English it should be speaked.

So it would also be acceptable to kick our bums.

Same 'authority' told me 'till' and ''til' are both acceptable. Maybe Hitcher should be allowed to kick one buttock?!

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Shouldn't this thread have been moved to Pointless Drivel, where it belongs, by now?
Corrected - OK?
And....probably.

Pointed drivel perhaps?

**Hitcher** · 19th January 2006, 18:16

When using "foreign" words in English, I believe that English language conventions apply. Apart from many exceptions (mouse/mice, goose/geese), in English, words are often pluralised by adding an S to the end. This "convention" doesn't need to change just because the word involved may originate from Latin: forum/forums, stadium/stadiums. Similarly the nonsense of some Maori words (e.g. Maori, kiwi), when used in English, being pluralised in Maori rather than in English.

**Ixion** · 19th January 2006, 19:13

Forum, stadium are English words. They have Latin roots, but when used in English they are English words. The meaning of forum in English is not the same as in Latin. Mr Hitcher is quite correct IMHO. And Mr Fowler , who brooks no argument, agrees also.

**idb** · 19th January 2006, 19:51

I see the point being made but in the Latin examples, both plural forms are accepted as I understand it.
Doesn't this further enrich the English language which, by virtue of being the magpie (some would argue mongrel) that it is, has developed into the expressive language that it has.
If English can co-opt a word and adapt it to it's own rules, then why also can't it bring some of the word's original rules with it to play with?

**boomer** · 19th January 2006, 23:44

Originally Posted by idb

I see the point being made but in the Latin examples, both plural forms are accepted as I understand it.
Doesn't this further enrich the English language which, by virtue of being the magpie (some would argue mongrel) that it is, has developed into the expressive language that it has.
If English can co-opt a word and adapt it to it's own rules, then why also can't it bring some of the word's original rules with it to play with?

cos its our ball and our rules.. don't like it? As johnny says 'Fuck off!!!"

:P

**Posh Tourer :P** · 20th January 2006, 05:43

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Apart from many exceptions (mouse/mice, goose/geese), in English, words are often pluralised by adding an S to the end.

Perhaps the most fascinating ones are those such as sheep/sheep...

**MisterD** · 20th January 2006, 06:29

Originally Posted by boomer

cos its our ball and our rules.. don't like it? As johnny says 'Fuck off!!!"

:P

Sometimes these high minded arguments really do need someone to cut to the nub of the gist. That was all starting to make my brain hurt, but it's better now.

**MSTRS:Me** · 20th January 2006, 07:56

Oi Boomer....Johnny is a proper noun and should have a capital

**Wolf** · 20th January 2006, 08:46

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Oi Boomer....Johnny is a proper noun and should have a capital

And, for clarity, perhaps a colon after "says"...

**Hitcher** · 20th January 2006, 10:29

I fear something is wedged in my colon. Maybe I should take advice from the constipated mathematician who worked it out with a pencil...

**Wolf** · 20th January 2006, 10:37

I agree with Phurrball, MSTRS et al. regarding the need for clarity in typed messages. For the most part I prefer to use "Good England" - "gooderer than many", anyway. Occasionally, if I'm typing in a hurry and too rushed to properly proof read (inasmuch as you can proof your own writing), I screw up. Occasionally I will use font changes, altered spelling etc to convey more meaning by approximating "English how she are spoke". Sometimes I will use deliberate malapropisms (before anyone starts casting nasturtiums at my use of the wrong words), archaisms ('tis fun, methinks), or deliberately mispelled words to convey an accent, to make a point, or to goad. I will even use txt or l33+ 5p33k for the sake of a pisstake.

In those occasions, I strive to make sure the meaning is still clear and, in some cases, conveys more information than the strictly correct English would - like letting people know my mood or how far my tongue is planted in my cheek.

Whether I succeed or not is a different matter - I haven't had too many WTF? type replies or PMs. I even limit my use of acronym to well known ones or provide a translation when asked (like the time I used "FAWOMFT" in the midst of yet another Frequently Argued Waste Of My Fucking Time.)

For all I "play" with the language and render it as though it were spoken, I still tend to obey the rules - like putting apostrophes when letters are missed out - I would not write "fucken" unless I were quoting some person I believed would spell it that way: "so this bastard leans out the window and yells "GET YA FUCKEN BIKE OUTTA THE WAY YA FUCKEN LOSER" at me" (I tend to believe people hurling abuse at me can't spel propa) or if I were putting on an accent.

I love English and all its vaguaries, for all I would like to see proper phonetic spelling introduced - complete with an extended alphabet to cope with all the different sounds and get rid of diphtongs and doubled letters (which means there would suddenly be a couple of thousand forms of written English but we'd be able to understand them because we'd "hear" the accent in our heads), even if that means using accents, tildas, umläute (deliberate use of foreign plural to piss Hitcher off) etc. I love playing with the language, but I believe you need to know the rules before breaking 'em.

And FWIW, I was brought up under with till and 'til being acceptable variants, likewise burned/burnt (and others of that ilk) and to use the original plurals of "borrowed" words - fora, octopi, genii, simulacra etc and to use the appropriate singular for others ("datum" for a unit of infomation). While I agree in some respect with Messrs Hitcher and Ixion, the rule regarding English pluralisation of foreign words is by no means universal (Data/Datum being a case where both forms are used and I've never seen Datums suggested as an acceptable word for "information"), and many dictionaries will list both as "acceptable".

I would, however, tend to use "fora" and similar for personal correspondences (because I'm "quirky" and tend to archaisms in my speech) and use "forums" for anything submitted for publishing (unless directly quoting someone and even then followed by [sic]) in accordance with the NZ Style Guide.

"Acceptable" alternatives they may be, but I do believe there is a time and place for their use. Fine for on here (sorry Hitch) but not acceptable when writing a report for the company's Prospectus.