Campbell Live tonight 22/02/06

[far queue]

Most Govt kinda techies I know are on a salary.

Lot's the contractors that do Telecom work are on piece rates. The ones that work for Downers, GDC, etc. Some also have to supply there own vehicals and so on, running themselves as a sub contractor to Downers, GDC etc. It's not good.

[far queue]

When was this?

winter 01 or something was close but we havent't really seen a nation wide black/brown out in a while. Auckland is just generally fucked from decades of people living with their heads in the sand rather than planning and building for the ever growing pop, now they are having to play catchup!

Greenies are to blame for power shortages.

Winter 01 sounds about right for the last major one, but there’s been other instances since then where we’ve been told to watch our power usage because they’re not making enough for us anymore. As you say, poor planning with regard to a growing population. It’s not like the writing wasn’t on the wall.

I wouldn’t blame the greenies for the shortages, but the power co’s poor planning. I like the fact that there are people prepared to get out there and save our green country from the corporations that just want to make money from it. I enjoy getting out there and playing in it, and would like to think that my kids will be able to continue to so, and their kids in time to come. But of course in any organisation/group there will be those that go a bit overboard with things. There does need to be a bit of common sense. Another group that can take some of the blame is the “Not In My Back Yard” crowd. They want the power, water, whatever, but they don’t want a Pylon, Wind Turbine, River Diversion and so on near them. They want to see all the bad buggers locked up, but when the prisons are full they don’t want a new one near them. They want to throw all their shit out instead of recycling, but when the dump’s full they don’t want a new one near them.

Sorry, got off track a bit there … but you get the idea

[far queue]

Ah! So Telecom bashing is now the 'flavour-of-the-month'?
Excellent change!

Yeah, tis a nice change isn't it, and the other thing I'm impressed with is it's stayed a debate rather than turning into an irrational name calling shit fight as usually happens. A pleasant change indeed. Well done guys

[Ixion]

Hell no, don't trust them for a minute. Just saying that the govt would have to buy the network rather than just nationilise it.

Why ?

..
Telecom want to pay the minimum possible to their contractors to keep profits up. Because of this contractors can't afford to spend too much time on doing a really top job - they have to plough through the work to earn a decent living, and often work longer hours to do so.

It's not the contractors fault, they do a good job, but they've got families to feed too.

So, what you're saying is that families , and society as a whole is suffering because the profits of a capitalist monopoly (most of which get sent offshore) are allowed to take priority of children being fed and other needs of society as a whole? And you agree with this?

Sounds like a PERFECT justification for nationalisation. The capitalists are saying, in effect "Stuff you, we don't give a damn what happens to society so long as we, the corporation, benefit". So why cannot we say in return "Stuff you , we don't give a damn what happens to your capitalist monopoly so long as we, society, benefit".

[sAsLEX]

I wouldn’t blame the greenies for the shortages, but the power co’s poor planning.

powerco: Hi I want to build a powerstation here

greenie: no you cant, fossil fuel

powerco: nuclear??

Greenie : nope

powerco : hydro

greenie: nope ruins habitats and ecosystems et al

powerco: wind

greenie: nope too noisey and look ugly

powerco: what do I build then??

greenie: nothing as we wont let you build the transmission lines anyways!!

[far queue]

Why ?

Because, as I’ve been saying I don’t believe the govt can sell something and then just take it back when they want to. They should have to buy it back. I know they’re the govt and can just make laws to do what they want, but it’s not really the right way.

So, what you're saying is that families , and society as a whole is suffering because the profits of a capitalist monopoly (most of which get sent offshore) are allowed to take priority of children being fed and other needs of society as a whole?

Basically, yes.

And you agree with this?

No not at all, just saying that this is what’s going on.

Sounds like a PERFECT justification for nationalisation. The capitalists are saying, in effect "Stuff you, we don't give a damn what happens to society so long as we, the corporation, benefit". So why cannot we say in return "Stuff you , we don't give a damn what happens to your capitalist monopoly so long as we, society, benefit".

Yes, the large companies are doing this sort of thing, but they are just making the most of the rules that the government created in the late ‘80’s with the introduction of the employment contracts act. So, the govt created the problem, and the companies are making the most of it. I agree with your views of doing things for the good of society as a whole rather than the profits of a few, but don’t see that it’s that simple to fix.

powerco: Hi I want to build a powerstation here
greenie: no you cant, fossil fuel
powerco: nuclear??
Greenie : nope
powerco : hydro
greenie: nope ruins habitats and ecosystems et al
powerco: wind
greenie: nope too noisey and look ugly
powerco: what do I build then??

This is what I meant when I said there are those that go a bit far. The powerco’s could’ve started the planning process a bit sooner though, rather than waiting until we’re running out, and then saying gosh, we’d better do something about that.

[sAsLEX]

This is what I meant when I said there are those that go a bit far. The powerco’s could’ve started the planning process a bit sooner though, rather than waiting until we’re running out, and then saying gosh, we’d better do something about that.

we have had extra generating ability for a while, sure at reduced effieciencies compared to the neweer stations, but New Plymouth which was one of the largest in the country is having to mothball its Units for the greenies, where they could be kept in reserve for WHEN the lakes run dry again but........greenies

They are moving NP to the ability to OIL fire for when Maui runs out and gas prices go up, so they are future thinking, but with the amount of time and money required to pay off all the local tribes and stuff during resource consent applications building new stations etc cant be done early as it costs too much when you can just charge more due to lack of supply!

[Ixion]

..
Yes, the large companies are doing this sort of thing, but they are just making the most of the rules that the government created in the late ‘80’s with the introduction of the employment contracts act. So, the govt created the problem, and the companies are making the most of it. I agree with your views of doing things for the good of society as a whole rather than the profits of a few, but don’t see that it’s that simple to fix.
.....

A few Khalashnikovs simplify such problems enormously. Very easy to fix. Trucks arrive (a few tanks help to reinforce the arguement). Capitalists go away in trucks. Capitalists not seen again. Telecom now belongs to the people. Is run for the benefit of society. Bricklayers repair wall . Sorted.

[Lou Girardin]

A few Khalashnikovs simplify such problems enormously. Very easy to fix. Trucks arrive (a few tanks help to reinforce the arguement). Capitalists go away in trucks. Capitalists not seen again. Telecom now belongs to the people. Is run for the benefit of society. Bricklayers repair wall . Sorted.

And they're even trying to rehabilitate Stalins memory in Russia. He is now neither hero or monster, but a heroic monster.
Telecom wouldn't be threatening him with litigation. They'd find themselves in an Auckland Island gulag.

[Finn]

A few Khalashnikovs simplify such problems enormously. Very easy to fix. Trucks arrive (a few tanks help to reinforce the arguement). Capitalists go away in trucks. Capitalists not seen again. Telecom now belongs to the people. Is run for the benefit of society. Bricklayers repair wall . Sorted.

We don't have Khalashnikovs let alone tanks. Socialism took care of that for us. It's next target is Healthcare, Education and Security and nothing can match the destructive power of Socialism. It's a nasty slow eating desease like cancer.

[MisterD]

destructive power of Socialism. It's a nasty slow eating desease like cancer.

More like Ebola....

[oldrider]

Hey Ive been away for a few days and this is the first thread Ive looked at.
There are some good interesting comments on here by some real free thinkers.
Unfortunately there are a few very misguided people who must be too young to have experienced the "Cuban" Telecom service we had here before it was sold off.
Do you know how long you had to wait to get a phone installed? Let alone mobiles or internet etc.
Believe me, this less than satisfactory so called "competitive" situation we have now is streets ahead.
That is no reason to persist with the current monopoly that Telecom has now! We got to move forward.
We need more real competition!
Check governments record of just being a government! (Shit a brick!)
Surely you don't want them ever involved in anything else! They shouldn't be involved in business, full stop!
Government are too involved in our lives now.
What this country needs is "Less Government not more". Cheers John.

[SPman]

. Bricklayers repair wall .

Revolution,assets to the people (well, some of the people, anyway) and, job creation!
What more could we want?
apart from Roger Douglas up against the wall.....!

[oldrider]

Revolution,assets to the people (well, some of the people, anyway) and, job creation!
What more could we want?
apart from Roger Douglas up against the wall.....!

SPman, lovely bike in your profile pic, mint condition, is it still like that?
To business, how do you reconcile your comment above with your signature? :eyepoke:
They are polls apart. (poor old Roger, which way is he going to be facing?) Curious John.

[oldrider]

Because, as I’ve been saying I don’t believe the govt can sell something and then just take it back when they want to. They should have to buy it back. I know they’re the govt and can just make laws to do what they want, but it’s not really the right way.


Basically, yes.


No not at all, just saying that this is what’s going on.


Yes, the large companies are doing this sort of thing, but they are just making the most of the rules that the government created in the late ‘80’s with the introduction of the employment contracts act. So, the govt created the problem, and the companies are making the most of it. I agree with your views of doing things for the good of society as a whole rather than the profits of a few, but don’t see that it’s that simple to fix.


This is what I meant when I said there are those that go a bit far. The powerco’s could’ve started the planning process a bit sooner though, rather than waiting until we’re running out, and then saying gosh, we’d better do something about that.

I find it amusing hearing people say that they want to return to the good old days when the government controlled the power system. Why?
Because since deregulation (never was privatised) in the late eighties the Government now control and "own" more of the electricity supply and distribution system (including retail) than they ever did prior to that time.
The general public of this country have been duped.
Electricity in this country is one great big "cash cow" for the government of the day that is why they talk a lot but never do anything about it.

The government own and operate.
1) "TransPower". The national grid. (Since deregulation, have swallowed up power board distribution systems, everywhere)
2) "Genesis". Thermal, hydro and since deregulation, retail.
3) "Mighty River Power".Northern Hydro and since deregulation, retail.
4) "Meridian Energy".Southern Hydro, wind and since deregulation, retail.
All of the above are owned and operated by "The Government" and people of this country think it is "privatised". (suckers)

5) "Contact Energy". Sold off to create the illusion of "privatisation". (Suckers)
There are other smaller Generation, distribution and retail companies that make up the private sector with Contact as well but the Government is by far the main player in the electricity generation, supply, distribution and retail in NZ.

When our Hydro lakes are low there was a large store (lake) of coal held for reserves so that thermal stations could then generate until the lakes recovered in "dry" years. Power shipped South via Cook strait cables over night for Southern dry years.
The "Greenies" refused to allow them to use it so Geneses sold it to overseas interests. That's why you have power shortages, they are man made. (Woman made in this case)
You have all been conned by these Socialist governments that you love so much.
There is a lot more to it of course but that's it in a nutshell. Cheers John.