No burqas when riding, ok...

[kickingzebra]

wise words from the dover. We are all pickled in media, and idealogical preconceptions... Basically comes back to that arguing on the internet quote...

Nuurrrr say I

[kickingzebra]

I was refering to alcohol sales for the record, as to the ideaology, read the books.

[Marmoot]

No, they pay for them like the rest of us.

At the end of the day we are all just human being and should be judged on our individual merits, not cultural or religious identity. Well, except kiwi sheep fuckers.

I have a good few muslim mates, they dont nick my pork scratchings when we are in the pub but other than that they are the same as any of you pricks.

They all have their prejudices and bullshit islam rants but at the end of the day it's the propaganda they have been fed by their elders and the media, same as us.

When you meet people and judge them on your own interactions it's all a little different. Just like the shit slinging on this dumb ass place!

Gees, Dover........this comment does not bear your hallmark.
Is that really you, Dover?

[Marmoot]

I was refering to alcohol sales for the record, as to the ideaology, read the books.

You were referring to Duty-Free alcohol sales, not alcohol sales as a whole.
I'd imagine Duty-free alcohol sales figures are nowhere near total alcohol sales.

[Marmoot]

Hate Speech is the fundamental right of a free society. Inflammatory comments are the realm of the bored. Burkhas look funny. Monkeys are cool. People from the waikato have something funny in the water supply...

It's called free speech, and you have the right to disagree. You even have the right to hate me for hateing the haters, but I assure you, I will treat the standard backslider muslim well, hell, I'll even buy the beer and talk and listen, long and in depth about life, philosophy and religion with said people. (edit, maybe even bikes, if the mahudjadin allow it)

That is not Free world, but instead you are living in a Euphoria.

Free world should guarantee other's freedom too. By your euphoric freedom, you are infringing on someone else's freedom.
True freedom should not only go one way, but should be balanced in the middle.
As I have been taught, with freedom and rights also comes responsibilities.
There is a need for balance on what CAN be said and what NEEDS to be said.

Take a thought on this: What good does a Hate Speech do?

[enigma51]

This thread has taking a big turn from No burqas when riding to drug alcohal religion whos god whos alla inteligence freedom etc

So in that spirit I think I should add a new one men wearing dresses are wrong!

[kickingzebra]

Several thoughts come to mind, one part of me thinks you are dead right. My argument is this. The confrontation between Islam and the rest of the world is unavoidable. This much is obvious if you should take the time to study the teachings of said religion.
So, to avoid hurting the feelings of those that profess faith in Islam, should we cede all authority and sovereignty of our countries immediately to them?

Unfortunately, by guaranteeing one form of freedom, by neccesity, you cede authority for others.
Hence, though a free citizen in NZ, the government has the power to arrest me if I excercise my freedom in a manner which doesn't fit the public ethos.

My agenda is awareness. It makes me cringe to hear Muslims saying "Islam is a religion of Peace" the bit they leave out is "peace with all other followers of Islam" By their own book, they claim war as their behest.

Hence my vehemence. I don't want my Daughters to grow up, to be forced to wear a burkha. I want them to be free to think for themselves. That is going to require a strategic defence of what the rest of the world holds dear.

Don't imagine it will go away by itself, that is madness.

[Phurrball]

Regarding my proof, do first hand witness accounts not count for anything? (sniip)

Not unless they're yours. 'Tis hearsay otherwise. And what was said about judging the entire Muslim world on two opinions.

(snip)So, to avoid hurting the feelings of those that profess faith in Islam, should we cede all authority and sovereignty of our countries immediately to them?

Unfortunately, by guaranteeing one form of freedom, by neccesity, you cede authority for others.
Hence, though a free citizen in NZ, the government has the power to arrest me if I excercise my freedom in a manner which doesn't fit the public ethos.

(snip)

What's wrong with carrying out identification in a manner sensitive to the mores of the party concerned? That protects the person concerned, avoids Bill of Rights issues, and is of minimal substantive consequence to due process.

Powers of arrest and may happen when under arrest are strictly prescribed. POlice have such powers on the understanding that they will use them reasonably and within the (statutory, policy, and court) rules. Taking this reasoning to its conclusion, police aren't allowed to use certain interview techniques on detainees (undue pressure etc) or the evidence gained is binned. Why should making a person do something that is anaethema to them be reasonable when there is a way around it where all parties are happy? That doesn't affect the freedom of anyone, and certainly doesn't involve any cession of soverignty.

I know where you're coming from, but I don't think that your implication that this opens a door that may be difficult to close is sustainable.

Cheers,

Ross.

[Ixion]

If the issue is identification, motorcyclists are on shakey ground.

A woman wearing a veil may be hard to identify. But not as hard as a motorcylist wearing a helmet and tinted visor. If I am wearing such, and Mr Plod stops me, asks for licence - "I need to see your face to establish that you are the person this licence was issued to. Please raise your visor". " No. Won't". Now, I am quite sure that the law has a means to resolve this impasse. Probably with me being taken down to Plod Central.

So, with bhurkas and all such. "Please enable identification - no ? OK , come along with me then". And Muslim spokespersons have indicated that they find that acceptable.

Where is the problem? I can't see what the fuss is about. When I was a boy, nuns wore pretty much the same get up (wimple and veil). No-one had problems with them driving.

I could of course comment that this whole bruhaa is typical with the current day obession with identification. Personally I am jolly fed up with every Tom Dick and Harry demanding ID at every turn. Piss off.

And how much use are the photos on licences anyway? Brothers often look alike (look at Messrs BugJuice and Postie). And , apart from that, here is my licence with the photo taken 10 years ago. When I had long black hair, And a full beard and moustache. Doesn't look like me ? Oh , well, I've got a No 1 buzz cut now - hairs pretty grey anyway. And shaved the beard. And got my nose broken a while back. And put on 50 kg. Yeah, it's me though.

If the Muslim women want to modestly cover head and face, where's the harm . Live and let live.

[MSTRS:Me]

The lesson is that religion is a dangerous business, best avoided.

Yes - but ignored at your peril.
Allah Akbar = God is great ... ??
Salaam = God's peace on you ...?

[Marmoot]

Several thoughts come to mind, one part of me thinks you are dead right. My argument is this. The confrontation between Islam and the rest of the world is unavoidable. This much is obvious if you should take the time to study the teachings of said religion.
So, to avoid hurting the feelings of those that profess faith in Islam, should we cede all authority and sovereignty of our countries immediately to them?
...
...
My agenda is awareness. It makes me cringe to hear Muslims saying "Islam is a religion of Peace" the bit they leave out is "peace with all other followers of Islam" By their own book, they claim war as their behest.

I fail to see where you are coming from.
If history is to be a good teacher, I believe there were more invasions and confrontations started by non-moslem authorities. Shall I say Spanish (inquisition, colonization, etc), Dutch, Portuguese and England as the past. Germany, Italy and Japan in the World War II, and our beloved modern-day US in the past 50 years.
The number of Moslem authorities invading non-moslem country to spread their words in the past 50 years? Zero.
So, how did you say we need to cede all our authority and sovereignty to them? or you were simply referring to the handful terrorist (relative to world's total Moslem population)? What about Basque, Free Chechens movements and IRA? They're not Moslem though they use similar methods of bombings, kidnappings, etc.
Is it 'there are some moslem extremists' or 'all moslems are extremists'?
Two similar sentence, but two different logic. One is partial, exceptional, anomaly; the other is total.
Which begs me (though I hate it so much) to question your motive: are you really concern about Moslems invading us, are you paranoids, or do you simply hate moslems because they are of different beliefs?
Remember, it only takes one to bark and being ignored. But it takes two to make a confrontation.

Hence my vehemence. I don't want my Daughters to grow up, to be forced to wear a burkha. I want them to be free to think for themselves.

I fail to see who is forcing them to wear burkhas.
In fact, what I see is you forcing moslem daughters not to wear burkhas even if they hold it in their belief to do so.
Same logic, but in reverse.....

[Oscar]

Yes - but ignored at your peril.
Allah Akbar = God is great ... ??
Salaam = God's peace on you ...?

True - I try and avoid religion, however as this thread proves, there's no ignoring it.

As sala'amu alaikum (peace be upon you).

[Marmoot]

As sala'amu alaikum (peace be upon you).

Wa'alaikum salaam...

[Oscar]

Several thoughts come to mind, one part of me thinks you are dead right. My argument is this. The confrontation between Islam and the rest of the world is unavoidable. This much is obvious if you should take the time to study the teachings of said religion.
So, to avoid hurting the feelings of those that profess faith in Islam, should we cede all authority and sovereignty of our countries immediately to them?

Unfortunately, by guaranteeing one form of freedom, by neccesity, you cede authority for others.
Hence, though a free citizen in NZ, the government has the power to arrest me if I excercise my freedom in a manner which doesn't fit the public ethos.

My agenda is awareness. It makes me cringe to hear Muslims saying "Islam is a religion of Peace" the bit they leave out is "peace with all other followers of Islam" By their own book, they claim war as their behest.

Hence my vehemence. I don't want my Daughters to grow up, to be forced to wear a burkha. I want them to be free to think for themselves. That is going to require a strategic defence of what the rest of the world holds dear.

Don't imagine it will go away by itself, that is madness.

"My agenda is awareness".

You agenda appears to be making baseless inflammatory statements.

For example you may wish to substantiate this statement:

The confrontation between Islam and the rest of the world is unavoidable.

This is like saying the existence of the IRA means that conflict between the Vatican and the rest of the world is unaviodable.

Although this one is true:

Hence, though a free citizen in NZ, the government has the power to arrest me if I excercise my freedom in a manner which doesn't fit the public ethos.

Because there are laws against hate speech.

What it comes down to Bubba, is that you can try and dress up ignorance in the guise of free speech, but it doesn't make you any less of a redneck moron than you obviously are...

[Oscar]

Wa'alaikum salaam...

Thanks, Cobber.