Free trade with China. What are your thoughts?

**terbang** · 7th April 2006, 11:48

Well our National carriers airliners will be maintained over there shortly..!

**cowpoos** · 7th April 2006, 11:52

Originally Posted by scumdog

s'funny, every time the dollars has dropped in my life the products on the shelf go up in price p.d.q. - "It's not our fault, it's the falling dollar ya know" - even if the product looks like it's been there a while at times.

When the dollar gets stronger the prices seem to take forever to drop.

yes.... but the point I was making....is that it doesn't reflect on the dollar....its companies making that an exuse....because they hav hedged currency to cover effects from dollar movements...

**oldrider** · 7th April 2006, 11:53

Originally Posted by Ixion

Yep, that's what 20 years of free market economy has done to us. And we want more of it ?

Not quite true in my opinion.
I think the Muldoon and Clark years have been the most destructive that I have witnessed over my life time.
In my early years I leaned towards Socialism but life experience has taught me that Capitalism and free trade is reality if you want to keep your freedom and living standards. Then there are so many pretenders to sort your way through.
At least you have an opinion and make some good points, I respect that. Cheers John.

**cowpoos** · 7th April 2006, 11:55

Originally Posted by Streetwise

no no no we have slipped down the leadger compaired to where we were 15 years or so ogo,

what are you talking about....are u comparing NZ to other countrys?....thats a political trick....doesn't mean shit...

**oldrider** · 7th April 2006, 12:01

Originally Posted by terbang

Well our National carriers airliners will be maintained over there shortly..!

The only ones who really needed to keep the "National Carrier" were our politicians, to maintain their endless "perks".
Who paid for it? us silly gullible tax payers.
Service is what we require who cares who it is supplied by as long as it is the best and priced accordingly.
We need a National Carrier like we need a dumb non performing national railway, or a hole in the head even.

**Ixion** · 7th April 2006, 12:04

Originally Posted by oldrider

Not quite true in my opinion.
I think the .. Clark years have been the most destructive that I have witnessed over my life time.
....
Capitalism and free trade is reality if you want to keep your freedom and living standards. ..

Surely you are contradicting yourself ? If the Clark years (capitalism and free trade run riot) are destructive, why do you think that more of it will enable us to keep our living standards

(Muldoon and Clark were diametrically opposed. He was a Socialist)

**Lou Girardin** · 7th April 2006, 12:12

Isn't it strange how people still think Muldoon was a conservative and Clark is a socialist.
Methinks they pay more attention to labels than actions. It's that nano-second attention span happening again.

**Ixion** · 7th April 2006, 12:18

Originally Posted by cowpoos

well acctually....if things are gunna be cheaper in NZ from imports....and our exporters are recieving more $$$ from our exports.....there will be more jobs.....better pay....and cheaper expendible goods to buy....one would think living standards would increase....wouldn't it?

Uh , you have it backwards.Imports get DEARER, cos of a falling dollar. So things cost more, people have less money (cos they have no jobs).

**oldrider** · 7th April 2006, 12:22

Originally Posted by Ixion

Surely you are contradicting yourself ? If the Clark years (capitalism and free trade run riot) are destructive, why do you think that more of it will enable us to keep our living standards

(Muldoon and Clark were diametrically opposed. He was a Socialist)

Correct, but is not the label where the problem lies, it the confusion of the "mix", the end result is the same. Think about it. In their cases (unlike motorcycling) it is not the journey but the destination that counts.(IMO) John.

**chickenfunkstar** · 7th April 2006, 12:28

Ixion - Can you explain why, in the long run, NZ$ won't return to New Zealand. I can't see how they're of any use to anyone who doesn't intend to buy things in New Zealand.

You seem to know a reasonable amount about this. What you say sort of does make sence, but I can't see how it's possible to have an indefinate outflow of $NZ.

**Ixion** · 7th April 2006, 13:00

Because we don't buy or sell internationally in $NZ. Noone wants them. We buy in $US (usually - maybe Euros) . And we sell in $US. $NZ is just a local currency. Can be converted to other currencies , but that is for the benefit of tourists and small time trade (eg Ebay).

China has a completely non-convertable currency (they're promising to make it convertable. Sometime. Yeah , right).

If you buy something from China, they demand payment in $US. So you have to pay for it out of the $US income you (you the country - I am talking at a national level here, it is different for small personal trading) have received from selling wool, timber etc. So that uses up your $US income

But, if you sell something to China they insist on paying in yuan, the Chinese currency. And that's not convertable. If you do have some $US, you can exchange them at a bank for $NZ. If you have money in a US bank, you can arrange to have it sent back to NZ and spend it here. Not so with yuan. you can't exchange it (except with Chinese government approval ,and then only at an artifical , horrendously bad , exchange rate they set). And you can't repatriate it - it is actually illegal to take money out of China. So if you sell them something , you end up with these yuan in a Chinese bank account. Not much use to you, eh. Ask the Chinese government - "Oi, this money, these yuan, I got paid for selling you that stuff- what am I supposed to do with it ? It's no use to me in China" " Ah. Velly solly. Most unfortunate. Maybe you come to China, have big holiday, spend all the money , eh ".

Take servicing. (Like Air NZ). Let's say you are a chippy.Your bike needs a service. I'm a NZ mechanic. You get me to service your bike, I do. You pay me in $NZ. I take the $NZ, and buy some meat and fruit for the family dinner, at the local shops.Now, you're happy , your bike's running well. I'm happy, there's food on the table. The shop keeper's happy, he's made some money selling me the food. The farmer down the road is happy, he raised the meat beast, and grew the fruit. And the farmer now calls you up and gets you to build him a new packing shed, paying you (partly) with the money he got from the shop keeper, who got it from me. Everyone's happy, everyone's got a job.

Alternatively you send your bike to China to be serviced. We'll assume they do a good job, and you get your bike back. So you're happy. So far.

But, the money you paid for the service stays in China (by law) And of course, I'm now out of a job. No income. I have to go on the dole , so your taxes go up to pay for that. And I can't afford fresh meat and fruit any more. So my family are hungry and unhappy. And I'm not spending money at the shops (don't get much on the dole eh). So the shop keeper isn't happy. And the farmer is staring at all this fruit and meat he can't sell. China doesn't want it , they grow their own. And even if he could sell it to China, they'll only pay in yuan. Which he can't bring back to NZ. So he's not happy, the fruit is rotting on the trees. And he certainly can't afford a new packing shed. So you have no work either, so you have to go on the dole too. So you're no longer happy.

Only happy people here are the Chinese. They're OK, they've got your money. But none of the Kiwis are happy, they're all out of work and broke. And taxes have gone through the roof to pay the dole to all the folk thrown out of work.

Obviously, highly simplified, and exaggerated. But in a nutshell, that's gloabalisation for you.

**oldrider** · 7th April 2006, 13:10

Originally Posted by Ixion

Obviously, highly simplified, and exaggerated. But in a nutshell, that's gloabalisation for you.

Thats not globalisation but it is dealing with China.

**MSTRS:Me** · 7th April 2006, 14:04

Originally Posted by Ixion

Take servicing. (Like Air NZ). Let's say you are a chippy.Your bike needs a service. I'm a NZ mechanic. You get me to service your bike, I do. You pay me in $NZ. I take the $NZ, and buy some meat and fruit for the family dinner, at the local shops.Now, you're happy , your bike's running well. I'm happy, there's food on the table. The shop keeper's happy, he's made some money selling me the food. The farmer down the road is happy, he raised the meat beast, and grew the fruit. And the farmer now calls you up and gets you to build him a new packing shed, paying you (partly) with the money he got from the shop keeper, who got it from me. Everyone's happy, everyone's got a job.

Neglects to mention that in such a closed economy ALL raw material must be sourced locally, Absolutely NO imports, and to avoid all the money ending up (eventually) in one place there must be some exports (or inbound tourists). Welcome to the game of MonopolyThatNeverEnds (TM)

**cowpoos** · 7th April 2006, 15:42

Originally Posted by Ixion

Uh , you have it backwards.Imports get DEARER, cos of a falling dollar. So things cost more, people have less money (cos they have no jobs).

if we have free tarde with china....they will have no import tariffs placed on them for importing goods into NZ....that will make goods cheaper yeah?

**terbang** · 7th April 2006, 15:54

Originally Posted by oldrider

Service is what we require who cares who it is supplied by as long as it is the best and priced accordingly.
:

Hmmm after having trained/flown with Asian pilots in the past that had quite a different cultural/religious view on life and death to us in NZ (so I suspect the mechanics are much the same) I am definatly left with the impression that catching the train is a safer option..