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[Colapop]

Apparently the government of South Australia has been fighting environmentalist cries for wind power - on the basis it doesn't stack up. Now the government have "discovered" a local parrot which might fly into the windmill blades and shuffle off it's mortal coil. The greenies can't answer that.

The point to note in that is that there is an argument for and against. There's always gonna be some study to back both sides of the argument. The best one I heard was how the Makara wind farm will affect the local dolphin population!! Apparently the silt mitigation will not be sufficient to negate run-off causing a decline in Sandhopper numbers, affecting then, Mullet which feed on Sandhopper and then Kahawai which feed on the Mullet and ultimately the Dolphins. Sometimes there's even less than 6 degrees of separation! And here was me thinking it was coz all the japs would come and marvel at our wonderous windfarm and stop oof for a snack...

[Winston001]

The point to note in that is that there is an argument for and against.........

Agreed. Can't really understand why Meridian etc are building wind farms unless they are trying to build up brownie points with the government. The economics are thin.

Yes you get electricity from wind, no, it isn't constant or very much.

Water has many times the mass of air which is why hydro systems are so simple and effective. Tidal power surely has got to be a better bet but what do we ever hear about that?

[sAsLEX]

The very old and dated New Plymouth power stations emit a hell of a lot more.

pfft that was flash as last time I was there.

With the operators like coiled springs at their stations.


Went to go up the chimney but the elevator was broken, hey its got a big chimney wonder why its got that........oh coal......and a deep water port........hmmmmm

[2_SL0]

Vortec energy was testing a wind turbine that would of been most suitable to the NZ market, however they either got squashed by the big players or went broke. Not sure which. But certainly their early testing was showing great potential.

[kickingzebra]

I am with nuclear energy. We spend so much time and money bitching about how bad it is, I say nationalise greenpeace, or otherwise silence them... Sell their pilfered assets, and the brains of any of the faithful paid up members, and use this money to fund research on nuclear waste recycling/disposal in an economically beneficial manner (we could sell fissionable materials to Iran, and other non hostile countries.. wucken fankers...)

There will be an answer to the nuclear waste problem, problem is assholes driving the country have heads stuck firmly up their asses, in a feat of remarkable dexterity. What bullshite.

Construction costs go up because everything is privatised in my opinion. We work for profit, that would be fine if the government actually bothered auditing where our taxpayer dollars go. I work for a construction company involved in some of the Prisons for example. Can you say gravy train?

The going rate for an employed carpenter should be about 27 to 30 dollars. On the prisons the powers that be are paying 100 plus. do the maths. I pay taxes too. there is no accountability, and that is where this bunch of hippy retards fall over, so much beaurocracy, but they are burning books and killing intellectuals. dumb busstids.

Rant never really over, just tide out for now...

[Milky]

Apparently the government of South Australia has been fighting environmentalist cries for wind power - on the basis it doesn't stack up. Now the government have "discovered" a local parrot which might fly into the windmill blades and shuffle off it's mortal coil. The greenies can't answer that.

I read that too - an interesting little snippet, it seemed from the tone of the article that the writer was pro wind anti fossil fuel. It also said that the governement was being swayed by the local oil and coal power producers who wanted to keep wind generation out as much as possible. There is so much hysteria about wind it is amazing... it is even comparable to the bad mouthing nuclear power gets.

How about active promotion and encouragement to save power - effecient building design,solar hot water heaters,etc, instead of the constant promotion of using more and more power, which we apparently have not enough of!

That is the most important thing methinks. How many of us still use incandescent bulbs at home? They cost 4-5 times as much in energy for the same light output. Most homes aren't made with passive solar in mind, or even insulated properly. I know mine isn't for one. I walked home from town one night - 2am or so - and went past a large number of places with aircon still on. It is crazy how inefficient and un-green, un-environmentally friendly we are as a country.

[Colapop]

Agreed. Can't really understand why Meridian etc are building wind farms unless they are trying to build up brownie points with the government. The economics are thin.

Yes you get electricity from wind, no, it isn't constant or very much.

Water has many times the mass of air which is why hydro systems are so simple and effective. Tidal power surely has got to be a better bet but what do we ever hear about that?

Tidal power studies have been done in NZ. Tidal flow has to be constant and strong enough to warrant installation of a tidal generator. The only place in NZ that one could be installed is in Cook Straight but the channel is not narrow enough to concentrate the flow required for generation.

The reality is that coal powered generation is the way to go. Unfortunately the gubermint has tied it's own hands with crap legislation such as the RMA. Yes the environment does need to be conserved but it has to be done in such a way that it is not so restrictive that nothing gets done. At the moment if you can prove an equitable case of hardship under the current legislation then you can appeal the consent. Abraham Lincoln said "You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time" that is what this legislation trys to do.

[Pixie]

Agreed. Can't really understand why Meridian etc are building wind farms unless they are trying to build up brownie points with the government. The economics are thin.

Yes you get electricity from wind, no, it isn't constant or very much.

Water has many times the mass of air which is why hydro systems are so simple and effective. Tidal power surely has got to be a better bet but what do we ever hear about that?

I wonder how much power is generated by the tidal flows at the manukau and kaipara harbour mouths?

[Pixie]

I am with nuclear energy. We spend so much time and money bitching about how bad it is, I say nationalise greenpeace, or otherwise silence them... Sell their pilfered assets, and the brains of any of the faithful paid up members, and use this money to fund research on nuclear waste recycling/disposal in an economically beneficial manner (we could sell fissionable materials to Iran, and other non hostile countries.. wucken fankers...)

There will be an answer to the nuclear waste problem, problem is assholes driving the country have heads stuck firmly up their asses, in a feat of remarkable dexterity. What bullshite.

Construction costs go up because everything is privatised in my opinion. We work for profit, that would be fine if the government actually bothered auditing where our taxpayer dollars go. I work for a construction company involved in some of the Prisons for example. Can you say gravy train?

The going rate for an employed carpenter should be about 27 to 30 dollars. On the prisons the powers that be are paying 100 plus. do the maths. I pay taxes too. there is no accountability, and that is where this bunch of hippy retards fall over, so much beaurocracy, but they are burning books and killing intellectuals. dumb busstids.

Rant never really over, just tide out for now...

What few people realise is the small volume the worldwide yearly nuclear waste production takes up.
I may be wrong ,but I think I heard that it was equal to the volume of a three bedroom house

[TwoSeven]

Tidal power studies have been done in NZ. Tidal flow has to be constant and strong enough to warrant installation of a tidal generator. The only place in NZ that one could be installed is in Cook Straight but the channel is not narrow enough to concentrate the flow required for generation.

I dont believe that is actually true. One can generate enough power generate electricity off of a small creek to power a house, so what your saying is technically, there are no ocean currents around New Zealand.

Also, it would be ignoring wave generation which is incredibly cheap and anyone who has been to the west coast of new zealand would realise is incredibly viable. Many countries, not only use wave generation for power creation, but also fresh water generation as well.

Nuclear power is way to expensive. By the time one has trained up the experts, modified all the saftey laws, learned how to run a plant, figured out how to build the things, employed and trained staff, worked out how to dispose of the material - saved up enough money to be actually able to dispose of the waste material, figured out how to refine uranium, or even save up enough money to buy it, fork out for building an 'earthquake proof' plant, sorted out where to put the thing. Half the country would be bankrupt. Your talking about a country that cant afford $500 million for new roads, let alone a couple of billion for electricity. Heck, for that kind of money, you could almost build 10,000 wave generation plants.

[Lou Girardin]

What few people realise is the small volume the worldwide yearly nuclear waste production takes up.
I may be wrong ,but I think I heard that it was equal to the volume of a three bedroom house

But the nuclear question has always been beyond rational debate in NZ. It's now an article of faith as a NZ'er. They'd no more agree to newkiller power than the Catholics would decide that abortion is God's work.

[TwoSeven]

What few people realise is the small volume the worldwide yearly nuclear waste production takes up.
I may be wrong ,but I think I heard that it was equal to the volume of a three bedroom house

Not even in the ball park I think . The encasement block they put the drums in for storage is about 5metres square. I think you may be just thinking of the raw material after its been processed, not how its packaged and stored.

In the US the liquid waste is stored in tanks that can be as big as one million gallon capacity that are then buried. What is called TLU waste is stored in special 40 gallon drums (its anything such as equipment that comes in contact with radioactivity), and the other various types of waste are often buried in huge concrete containers.

[k14]

Nuclear power is way to expensive. By the time one has trained up the experts, modified all the saftey laws, learned how to run a plant, figured out how to build the things, employed and trained staff, worked out how to dispose of the material - saved up enough money to be actually able to dispose of the waste material, figured out how to refine uranium, or even save up enough money to buy it, fork out for building an 'earthquake proof' plant, sorted out where to put the thing. Half the country would be bankrupt. Your talking about a country that cant afford $500 million for new roads, let alone a couple of billion for electricity. Heck, for that kind of money, you could almost build 10,000 wave generation plants.

But there's also another factor that you're forgetting. Say we did manage to scrounge up the expertise, money and other factors available to build a nuke plant.

The smallest nuclear power unit available is around the 1500-1800MW size. Thats a massive chunk of the total NZ generation (about 20%). Way way too much for NZ to support with its small infrastructure. The current biggest single generator in NZ is Otahuhu (380MW). The reason this is important is a little thing called reserve. The power market in NZ is setup so that it can handle the largest single sorce of power (currently Otahuhu) tripping off the system and the lights not going out (ie there is 380+MW of reserve generation available so that the instant a station drops off the grid it is there to take up the slack). If the nuclear plant was made then there would have to be enough reserve energy available to stop the lights going out, which NZ is no where near capable of with the current size of our generation capacity. Yeah maybe in 20 years when the power consumption is about 15000MW or so but not as it stands with max demand around the 7500MW mark.

So with these facts in mind NZ is restricted to either hydro or thermal. Gas is not available, hydro is basically tapped out so that just leaves coal.

[Ixion]

,,

The smallest nuclear power unit available is around the 1500-1800MW size. Thats a massive chunk of the total NZ generation (about 20%). ,,

You are much mistaken. The great majority of reactors are far smaller than this. In fact 1300MW is the LARGEST common commercial size.

Techniatome in France supply "off the shelf" (not quite) modular reactors for power and heat in 100MW to 300MW sizes.

The Chinese NHR200 is a simple robust 200MW unit extensively used.

Russia has the VK300 (250MW) and a small version , the OKBM PWR (45 MW) designed to be mounted on a barge.

Chinergy is building now 195MW HTR-PM units in China.


Nuclear power plants are now available as modular standard units. You don't have to design them, just buy and install. The suppliers will provide training for operators. And of course you don't need to refine uranium, you just buy fuel rods from your friendly (not quite local) supplier.

"Nuclear waste" has become a bogeyman word, largely devoid of meaning. It is used to cover anything related to the nuclear industry, from the tailings at the uranium mine sites, through to (literally) the dust vacuumed from the power house floors. At one site in the USA , great play was made of the volume of daily waste produced. Shock. Horror. Until it was discovered that the WHOLE of the "waste" was in fact the waste from the staff cafeteria, and the waste paper bins in the offices .

The only "nuclear waste" that we need worry about is the spent fuel. Assuming this IS waste, because of course modern reactors can recycle it (MOX reactors). Send back the spent fuel rods, and they are "recharged".

If you use a "throw away" design (most US reactors are throw away, and most of the hysteria comes from the US. Go figure), then waste fuel production will be about 20 cubic metres per 1000MW per year. It varies of course. This is around 150 tonnes. As Mr Pixie said, about the size of a small house. This is the figure for the fuel itself. Containment will make that much larger, depending on what you contain it in.

[k14]

You are much mistaken. The great majority of reactors are far smaller than this. In fact 1300MW is the LARGEST common commercial size.

Techniatome in France supply "off the shelf" (not quite) modular reactors for power and heat in 100MW to 300MW sizes.

The Chinese NHR200 is a simple robust 200MW unit extensively used.

Russia has the VK300 (250MW) and a small version , the OKBM PWR (45 MW) designed to be mounted on a barge.

Chinergy is building now 195MW HTR-PM units in China.

Shit well is that a fact. What happens when you just go on what other people tell you.