A wet weather braking secret.

**Crasherfromwayback** · 25th May 2006, 17:20

Yeah mate....dunno who's been coaching 'Frosty'....but they're full of shit whoever they are!

**FROSTY:Me** · 25th May 2006, 18:39

betcha anything you "ease up" on the brakes before grabbing a handfull.
100% if you as you are indicating "grab a handfull" in the wet you'll end up on ya ass. In other words on the brakes a little then release then back on

**Crasherfromwayback** · 25th May 2006, 18:45

Originally Posted by FROSTY

betcha anything you "ease up" on the brakes before grabbing a handfull.
100% if you as you are indicating "grab a handfull" in the wet you'll end up on ya ass. In other words on the brakes a little then release then back on

Sorry mate....not true.
Apply pressure gently and progressively....never let them off.
I can't remember EVER being out braked in the wet....and that includes racing against some pretty fast people on all sorts of bikes.

**Ixion** · 25th May 2006, 19:20

I do the same as Mr Frosty. It may not be the most powerful braking method but it is the safest on public roads, as opposed to the race track. On the road, in the wet, the surface can be very dubious - gravel, oil, diesel, cowopoos (Hiya, 'Poos , mate, whatcha doing lying on the road ?). Better a tiny loss of ultimate braking than a total loss of the front wheel.

**cowpoos** · 25th May 2006, 19:45

Originally Posted by Ixion

I do the same as Mr Frosty. It may not be the most powerful braking method but it is the safest on public roads, as opposed to the race track. On the road, in the wet, the surface can be very dubious - gravel, oil, diesel, cowopoos (Hiya, 'Poos , mate, whatcha doing lying on the road ?). Better a tiny loss of ultimate braking than a total loss of the front wheel.

hi ya lad!!...lmfao!

anyway...I got to agree with crasher and LB on this one sorry frosty....I do alot of offroad riding in very slippery condition's and could show you very easily the result of the two different braking methods discribed on this thread...crashers techenic as he discribed it is the fastest and safest techenic...I could even show you a stoppie on a wet paddock using his techenic....your one would result in alot of unpredictablity....honestly...

**sugilite:Me** · 25th May 2006, 22:29

I'll put my 2 cents in, I'm with crasher and LB too, loading and unloading the suspension is a risky business in my books. For the road, just keep as much following distance as possible, prevention is better than cure.

**Gremlin** · 25th May 2006, 22:40

Its not so much loading and unloading the suspension, more about keeping the bike under control. I have been on my brakes so hard I'm sure the front was beginning to lock up and slide. Now thats what you don't want.

The point of backing off is to give the bike a chance to recover as such and have another crack. When I jump on the brakes in the wet, my rear locks up easily, so I back off and take another crack, and often need more attempts.

If I just kept the brakes on hard, it would achieve nothing except landing me on my arse. A locked and sliding wheel does nothing to help you slow down.

**T.W.R** · 25th May 2006, 23:37

The comparison between road & track varies to much to make a direct assessment.
Cadence braking may in some instances can be more effective than consistant force because its essentially ABS braking, though to actually do it requires a huge amount of sensitivity & control.

Consistant graduated pressure on the other hand is a safer option for the majority of riders & bikes as it doesn't upset the compression of the forks/weight transfer or the deformation of the front tyre, though it doesn't decrease the chance of rear end chatter.

The safest option for braking in the wet is double your following distance of vehicles or increase your marking zones for corners, it's that simple.

**loosebruce** · 25th May 2006, 23:48

Originally Posted by Gremlin

Its not so much loading and unloading the suspension, more about keeping the bike under control. I have been on my brakes so hard I'm sure the front was beginning to lock up and slide. Now thats what you don't want.

The point of backing off is to give the bike a chance to recover as such and have another crack. When I jump on the brakes in the wet, my rear locks up easily, so I back off and take another crack, and often need more attempts.

If I just kept the brakes on hard, it would achieve nothing except landing me on my arse. A locked and sliding wheel does nothing to help you slow down.

In the nicest possible way, learn how to fucken brake properly, if you could brake effiecently in the wet you shouldn't need to "back"off, helpful hint dont even bother with the rear brake, the thing is as you load the front up the rear gets lighter thus making it easy to lock up, even easier in the wet, if you must use the rear in the wet, extreme gentlness required, and prolly best to use the rear then the front to try and get some load onto the back, but really it's a waste of time using the back IMO.
The best way to brake in the wet, is the same in the dry, load up the front with a gentle pull on the lever, transferring weight up front, thus loading the suspension and flattening the tyre to give a greater contact patch on the road surface then pull back progressivly on the lever, by getting off and on again you unload the front therefore lesseing your tyres contact patch, meaning more chance of crashing, when you stab it back on.
If you want to argue with me fine, next time it's wet we'll go for a ride, andf if you or anyone outbrakes me or goes round the outside of me and they have a different way of braking i "might" listen to them.
Gremlin i understand your still lack experiance compared to some of us, keep a good front tyre on your bike, and make sure you have heat into and you'll be surprised to how hard you can brake, pulse braking or letting off is a recipe for a crash, no questions, you should be able to modulate your brake pressure to adjust for grip or lack of, by modulating you can keep load on the suspension and tyre. FACT!!!!!

**Crasherfromwayback** · 26th May 2006, 00:06

Originally Posted by Ixion

I do the same as Mr Frosty. It may not be the most powerful braking method but it is the safest on public roads, as opposed to the race track. On the road, in the wet, the surface can be very dubious - gravel, oil, diesel, cowopoos (Hiya, 'Poos , mate, whatcha doing lying on the road ?). Better a tiny loss of ultimate braking than a total loss of the front wheel.

Some good points regarding various friction levels due to surface variations....but not, I believe, what this is all about.
I've raced at national level (scuse the wank) on sand, mud, and on asphalt.
PROGESSIVE and CONTINUOUS force is the ONLY way.
Anything else means you need to go back to braking school 101.
Yes Ixion...if you are braking hard out and come across something that's really slimey compared to the surface you were on a split second ago, you need to release the picks a bit... but not what was said originally by too many people here.
I'll say the same to you as I said to frosty.....if you can stop harder than me in the wet.....I'll lick your balls.
You must do likewise if you decide to take on the challange using your techniques.

**Gremlin** · 26th May 2006, 00:24

I'm certainly not going to question you LB, but at the same time, its an excellent way to learn to control the bike when it is out of shape.

The main "event" as such that I had was splitting in the wet, and in the millisecond you have, for one car, I decided to brake, and got to test out the brakes, tyres etc in the wet. The problem is that the z6 is solid rubber in the middle of the rear tyre. Weird, and I don't know why.

Anyway, hard on brakes, rear locks, had the back sliding both ways, but under control, so backed off a bit. Dabbed the rear on again, and again it slid. Anyway, was modulating the front a bit as well, not hard on the whole time.

Don't forget tho, your brakes will be sharp as, with your bike and you yourself not weighing 300+ kg. I reckon its good to get used to sliding and managing a bike under heaving braking, wet etc.

If I slowly increased pressure on my front brake, continuously, the most likely result will probably be the front end tucking under me, and me going for a slide. The zx7r is a lot of bike (and a front biased bike at that) to stop.

**Crasherfromwayback** · 26th May 2006, 00:36

Originally Posted by Gremlin

Anyway, hard on brakes, rear locks, had the back sliding both ways, but under control, so backed off a bit. Dabbed the rear on again, and again it slid. Anyway, was modulating the front a bit as well, not hard on the whole time.

If I slowly increased pressure on my front brake, continuously, the most likely result will probably be the front end tucking under me, and me going for a slide. (and a front biased bike at that) to stop.

Exactly mate.....because the first and ONLY brake you need in a situation like this is the FRONT brake.
PROGRESSIVLY and SMOOTHLY.

**loosebruce** · 26th May 2006, 00:45

Originally Posted by Gremlin

I'm certainly not going to question you LB, but at the same time, its an excellent way to learn to control the bike when it is out of shape.

The main "event" as such that I had was splitting in the wet, and in the millisecond you have, for one car, I decided to brake, and got to test out the brakes, tyres etc in the wet. The problem is that the z6 is solid rubber in the middle of the rear tyre. Weird, and I don't know why.

Anyway, hard on brakes, rear locks, had the back sliding both ways, but under control, so backed off a bit. Dabbed the rear on again, and again it slid. Anyway, was modulating the front a bit as well, not hard on the whole time.

Don't forget tho, your brakes will be sharp as, with your bike and you yourself not weighing 300+ kg. I reckon its good to get used to sliding and managing a bike under heaving braking, wet etc.

If I slowly increased pressure on my front brake, continuously, the most likely result will probably be the front end tucking under me, and me going for a slide. The zx7r is a lot of bike (and a front biased bike at that) to stop.

You'll slow down quicker and more controllably using the front only, a locked wheel is doing fuck all for slowing you down and just increasing the chance of losing it, and as you say the ZX7R is a front biased bike in terms of weight even more reason for the rear to lock up under heavy braking, stay off the back altogether, use it for wheelies! yea locking up the back and sliding around can be a bit of fun, i do it every now and then and it can be good for getting used to the bike moving around a bit, but my point is it shouldn't happen in the first place.
The Z6 is a fine tyre, dual compond whatever, nothing wrong with them in the wet!
The GSXR feuled and me is bascilly 300kg (im not the lightest muppet about), the ZX7R has one of the best front ends in the business on the road IMO, and if you like you can hand your bike to me in the pissing rain and i'll show you a 6ft rolling stoppie from 140kph, it's technique and practice and understanding how and why you bike reacts and does what it does.

**Ixion** · 26th May 2006, 00:52

Tis not really a subject I'd argue on, and I'm sure that you would have no trouble braking harder than me.

But perhaps our requirements are different

you said

....It's amazing how hard you can use the front picks in the wet if you're careful with how you apply them, and you do it whilst 100% upright....

Now, for me, the ONLY time I would ever be applying brakes hard, wet or dry , is in an emergency.

And, probability is , such an emergency is going to be around town. Like as not around intersections.

And in those conditions (a), the issue of slippery surfaces is significant. I left out paint BTW, worst of all in the wet.and (b) you probably can't rely either on being "100% upright" , or on having the time or being able to spare the attention for "being careful with how you apply them". It's a matter of summing up the situation that has just developed, assessing the survival odds of the various options, moving the bike for avoidance, and braking . All at the same time. And, you probably aren't going to have the luxury of being able to determine the surface, and it will change as you run onto wet paint, or an oily patch.

On the race track, or even hard braking on the open road is another matter. Though why anyone would brake hard on the open road in the wet I really don't know. I certainly wouldn't , except, as I said, in an emergency when I had no other choice. And braking is always my last resort in an emergency.

**Gremlin** · 26th May 2006, 00:58

Originally Posted by loosebruce

The Z6 is a fine tyre, dual compond whatever, nothing wrong with them in the wet!

Actually, the rear having no tread in the very centre of the tyre is a problem (in my very humble opinion). Straight upright, you can aqua plane it, and I have done so. Not exactly sure how, but I must have hit something slippery, but next second I had a 2 wheel drift forwards and sideways at 80kph for at least 10m.

Originally Posted by loosebruce

and if you like you can hand your bike to me in the pissing rain and i'll show you a 6ft rolling stoppie from 140kph, it's technique and practice and understanding how and why you bike reacts and does what it does.

As much as I would love to see that... and I really would... I have seen pics, and I don't hate my bike that much yet

I agree with the locked wheel not helping, thats why I dab it etc. The zx7r and I probably weigh 320-330 kg