Australia & France.

[Smorg]

At the time of the raid, forty-five ships were in the harbour. Ten were sunk and numerous others were damaged. Fifteen aircraft were destroyed including nine of the ten Kitty hawks that engaged the enemy.

The Post and telegraph offices were destroyed along with a Police Station, Barracks, Cable office, Government offices, RAAF hospital, Recreational Hall, and Equipment stores. Many houses were destroyed. The hospital was also damaged. The Darwin Harbour and RAAF base were hit the hardest.

The Japanese killed 253 people and wounded roughly 400. In the first two raids the Japanese used 242 planes. They dropped approximately 114 620 kilograms of ordinance consisting of at least 683 separate bombs and countless machine gun shells.

At Pearl Harbour, by contrast, they used 350 planes dropping only 271 bombs and torpedoes with an all up weight of about 146 400 kilograms.

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

[The_Dover]

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

Think about it.....

Everyone hates Australians, even the Japs. They probably just felt like bombing them.

[Big Dave]

Think about it.....

Everyone hates Australians, even the Japs. They probably just felt like bombing them.

Dubyah don't. He likes John. He's going to let us have nukes.

[The_Dover]

Dubyah don't. He likes John. He's going to let us have nukes.

Yeah, but he's gonna give you the ones that Joe Dirt found in the desert.

[Smorg]

Prepare for total domination............

[Hitcher]

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

Ordnance. And Darwin was attacked because it was a strategically important air and sea hub that gave the allies "reach" over the vital seaways between Australia and continental Asia, particularly after the Japanese overran the Philippines and took over the former US bases there, not to mention the British port of Singapore. The US Navy relocated from the Philippines to Freemantle, and had planned to move to Whangaroa harbour in Northland, but the Japanese did not chase them south, as expected. At one stage the Australians had planned to evacuate entirely Western Australia and the Northern Territory in readiness to fight the Japanese on home soil. The fact that the Japanese did not follow through with further attacks on Australia shows how extended they were.

[Smorg]

save da spelling lesson for sum 1 who kares. I wuzz making a point knot a exceptans speech 4 a oxford scholarship

[Ixion]

but but but but.......................The japanese weren't interested in Australia and NZ. Why people would they drop this amount of ordinates on Darwin if they had no interest in it??

Because they had a little bit left over??......I think not

Fairly obvious I would have thought. To deny it to the enemy (ie, the US).

Hence why the harbour and air base were most damaged. The Japs didn't particulary need Darwin, though they'd no doubt have grabbed it if it could have easily been done. But they DID want to prevent the US using it as a forward base. . So, bash it up.

Hence, the difference in ordnance. Pearl Harbour was attacking hardened targets. Battleships, and heavy military installations. So, fewer , bigger bombs. And the raids had to be launched from further away.

Darwin was basically just a civilan port. Nothing armoured, nothing much behind thick concrete. Lots of small bombs to do that job.

Blow it to bits so the enemy doesn't use it. Different matter to an invasion. No-ones saying that Japan was not at war with us and the US. In war, you try to blow up enemy stuff. It's sort what it's all about. But invasion ups the ante a LOT.

[Hitcher]

save da spelling lesson for sum 1 who kares. I wuzz making a point knot a exceptans speech 4 a oxford scholarship

Seeing that you say you don't care, I'll leave you alone on the basis that you don't use words you don't understand the meaning of. Deal?

[onearmedbandit]

Think about it.....

Everyone hates Australians, even the Japs. They probably just felt like bombing them.

LMFAO!! But yes, you are right.

[mstriumph]

my family has spent many generations despising the french
---- i see no reason in recent history to break with that tradition

however, we've only been despising america since the advent of primetime games shows ..... mebbe there is room for negotiation there?

[oldrider]

Hitcher and Ixion, I think your arguments are reasonable for the situation that the Japanese found themselves in and to execute a plan B but I still think the original plan was to invade and conquer Australia and New Zealand.
Apart from the Americans being involved there would have been little to stop them.
This would have also been dependant upon a better result in Europe by Hitler and his allies at that stage of the war.

I have never really understood (nor bothered to learn about it) the tie-up between Germany and Japan, especially with Hitlers racial attitudes.
Have you guys ever studied/read/thought anything about that?

[Ixion]

The key to understanding that is to realise what Japans fundamental war aim was. Japan wanted, desperately needed, the Dutch East Indies. For oil. And, preferably, Malaya, for tin and other minerals.

Japan didn't go to war for the sake of it. It was a cool cold hard calculation, by very astute diplomats. Invading and conquering NZ made no sense to the Japs - we had nothing they wanted. Australia, a bit more sense, because of its mineral wealth.

But what Japan REALLY wanted, and was willing to fight for was the DEI , and , to a lesser extent, Malaya. They would give the Empire what it needed , and would be a whole lot easier to capture than Australia.

They tried to buy the DEI from the Nederlands, but were rebuffed. OK, then, lets wait and see, maybe Mr Hitler will defeat and occupy Holland. Then we can buy the DEI from Germany. And, indeed Mr Hitler was quite willing to sell.
Similarly with Malaya , if Germany could eithr defeat Britain, or weaken it enough.

What went wrong with the plan was the US. Japan wanted oil and minerals to build an industrial economy. To fit with that it had invaded China, to secure a cheap labour force and a captive market.

But, the US also had eyes on the Chinese market. And definately did NOT want a local industrial power in Asia. Then, as now, the US sees the rest of the world as corporate fodder - either cheap labour or captive market.

So the US told Japan "Hands off DEI". And told Germany not to sell (remember, Germany and the US were not yet at war, and Germany desperately wanted to avoid war).

Then the US declared an embargo on supply of steel or oil to Japan. That was casus belli, of course, though noone remembers that nowdays. The victors write the history books.

So Japan really had no choice . Accept a permanent destiny of economic serfdom to the US corporations (remember, Japan has almost no mineral assets) . Or fight. Obviously, they chose to fight. Hoping that they could secure a quick knockout blow to the US fleet, that would give them time to grab India and the Phillipinnes as bargaining counters ."We give them back, you give us a free hand in DEI and Malaya".

But, they missed the US fleet carriers, and the bloody minded Brits and Anzacs wouldn't roll over and give up in Burma. So they never got to India, and the naval war went all wrong.

Yamamoto should have chased the US carriers and sunk them, using his battleships. He would have had to abandon most of his planes, and his losses would have been horrendous, but it letting the carriers escape made a nonsense of the whole Pearl Harbour attack. The US carriers did not have the planes they got later, battle ships could have pressed home successful attacks on them. Even if he ended the battle with only one ship afloat, it would have been well worth it. He was not ruthless enough, his squeamishness cost his country dearly.

So, in the end, it was all about oil. Not much ahs changed has it.

EDIT. This is of course massively simplified and glosses over some huge complexities. But weighty tomes have been written on the subject, so a full discussion is far beyond the scope of these pages.

EDITY EDIT. If Japan's real aim had been Australia , they would have struck sooner. In mid 1940 Britain would have been unable to spare any naval squadron for an eastern theatre. The French fleet was still in being , and under Vichy command. The Italians had just entered the war, with a large modern battle fleet.And the German battleships were still afloat. And the Battle of Britain was waging - if the Germans launched Operation Sealion, every RN vessel would be required in the Channel or North Sea.

The Japs could have invaded then with near impunity.

By the end of 1941 the picture was very different. The battle of Taranto had dealt to the Italians. The Vichy fleet had been Nelson'd at Mers el Kabir . The Bismarck was sunk. And Operation Sealion was obviously not a starter.

The RN could , if it had had to, have dealt with the Japanese fleet. It would have taken unthinkable losses in ships and men, but it wasn't really needed elsewhere . True , the other German battleships remained, and the Italians were not totally knocked out. But the RN had a lot of battleships. And the main naval action in western waters by then was the fight against E boats and U boats, which did not need capital ships. If Japan ever intended its main war aim to be an Australian invasion, it would not have waited so long.

EDITY EDITY EDIT. The debt that we owe to the Royal Navy, and the NZ and Australian squadrons is one of the least recognised of WW2. It was their swan song, and a glorious one.

[Smorg]

Seeing that you say you don't care, I'll leave you alone on the basis that you don't use words you don't understand the meaning of. Deal?

yeah' I dont know what ordinates means...... t"hats why i used it in the ! right context;?

[oldrider]

Thank you that was very interesting and fits a lot of what I had assumed but have never bothered to pursue in any detail.
So many men so many opinions there is so much I don't know.
A few strokes of luck here and there our world could be a very different one to that which have now though. Cheers John.