LTSA Stats....

[bluninja]

Whoops...forgot one paranoid comment.....if ACC want to cut the death toll from motorcyclists why not just keep hiking the ACC levy for bikes so it becomes less affordable and people switch away from bikes. Less bikers paying more money...until there's no bikers on the roads......and so at a stroke biker deaths and injuries are removed from the road toll. Hey..such a simple solution and costs nothing to implement. If the bikers get hacked off, just wind them up some more so they give up riding.

TTFN

[wkid_one]

The main thrust behind the increase in ACC premiums in the registration of motorcycles is attributed to the severity of the accident/injury and the duration of recuperation and therefore payment by ACC.  Motorcycle injuries tend to be more severe and long lasting - however, there are fewer of them.

Yes, you can argue petrol in the UK is $2 per litre - however - you aren't comparing apples with apples.  If you take the UK pound as the pound and the dollar as the dollar - we ARE one of the highest country for excise tax on petrol - refering to the article completed on 20:20 in May 2001.......happy to provide a copy.  If you take pure Tax as a percentage of the cost in the nominated currency of the country concerned - we are.  Especially for 'non-essential' taxations.

Yes Statistics can be made to read whatever you like - true - as I said before I have the full 97 page breakdown of the motor accident and fatality statistics for 2002 which I am happy to go through with you.  The information I have provided is largely sterilised and simplified for the purposes of discussion.  Does this not also mean that statistics can be made to read against motorcyclists as they have to date.

There are a variety of external factors - many motorcycles own more than one bike but only ride one at a time - is this fair?

The information I have provided here is only a snippet of what has been 6 months worth of work and research - happy to discuss with anyone!

 

 

 

 

 

[wkid_one]

PS: the LTSA website and the article I previously attached does breakdown by AGE GROUP! but not cross referenced by vehicle class - I do have this and will look it up and post it later!

[Redstar]

Actually I think it only fair that we pay more ACC levies than other road users! While I was passing a GSXR1100 the otherday at a sedately 235Kmls/hr I noticed that this idiot was Smoking a fag,talking in his mobile,fiddling with his radio and airconditioner
shaving,eating his lunch,reading some boreing meeting minutes,
putting on his make-up(weirdo)all that with his helmet gloves and body armoured gear! amazing I tell you.

I think a fairer system is user pay through vechicle insurance
I do 15,000 a year and rarely get killed.

[bluninja]

WKID, not sure I want the full 97 page report....BUT does it have an explanation of their data acquisition methodology and quality controls on the data? I would be interested in that. Cos to coin an old programming phrase 'Crap in - Crap out'. As a sad git I did some formal study on systems analysis in a degree course (not IT related) and it always interests me about what system is actually being anlaysed and the perspective of the analyst as this will have a great bearing on the result.

TTFN

ps I make UK tax at 74% ish of total cost and NZ tax at 38% ish of total fuel cost.

[wkid_one]

Yeah, I am pretty sure it does have information as to the method of collection.  It is largely driven from the ACC Forms & Police Data - ie dependant on the information obtained at the time of the accident - and in some cases the 'interpretation' given by the officers on the scene or crash investigation specialists.

I will try and dig out the whole form.  I will also post the article on the tax differences country to country as a seperate document.

The upshot of everything is that whilst we have more severe accidents - we don't warrant excessively restrictive tax and legislative movements.  We have less injuries as a percentage of registered vehicles than cars.  The figures also hide the accidents caused by Cars etc that impact on motorcycles - ie the blame or fault of the accident.  This is a difficult area to accurately determine as there are so many variables - eg a car driver pulling on to a road in front of a bike - did he not see him, was the bike travelling to fast, was the bikes brakes faulty etc etc etc.

Rugby has more injuries and is the result of more ACC payments (go to the ACC website) than motorcycling - yet it still only costs a pittance to play rugby??  We are being targetted purely because we are easy to seperate as a group and I believe there is a stereotype attached to motorcycling by those who don't!

I still reckon I have months left in this.  It is just an exercise I am doing for my stats study - plus I have WAY too much time on my hands at the moment

I am glad it has provoked so much discussion - that was my only intention and to question, why as such a large united voice - we just let it happen!

[MikeL]

Originally posted by wkid_one
why as such a large united voice - we just let it happen!

"We" doesn't include me because, as I understand it, these changes were brought in last year, when I was still an oblivious and uncaring cager...
Now, though, I'm angry, and the question is "what can I do about it now?". Letter to MP? Refusal to pay full rego when it becomes due? Suggestions, please.

[merv]

Bikers didn't just let the ACC thing happen we had the big ride-in to parliament and Ruth Dyson did listen and in the end we got slugged a lot less than was first planned, but watch out in future years.

As for suggesting I was slurring Ulyssians, well I am one and I was quoting fact - I said the LTSA stats show there is a large proportion of bike crashes that are single vehicle on straights or curves - i.e. bikers fault pure and simple, no one else made them do it - and then I said - fact also - that I have been amazed at the number that have done just that on rides I have been on over the years.

I have been riding 34 years and even 30 years ago it was rare for any of the young guys I rode with then to crash on the road. The difference maybe was the bikes were definitely slower and we were mainly dirt bikers too and we had our crashes in the dirt with little damage occurring.

It is time they registered pushbikes, skateboards and rugby players so they can be slugged their own speciall ACC fee and not just pick on us. Als as all the multi-bike owners know too what a rip-off when we only ride one at a time.

But hey we have fun when we do it though - ride that is, and as I said before ride safe - that is the only way to get the premiums down but it will take time for that to have any effect until the legacy of costs has diminished.

[merv]

p.s. this is the table I was looking at http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/research/ann...e-table-33.pdf

We had the debate on the Ulysses site once with bikers blaming cars for crashes, but when you see this breakdown of where accidents occur and you add up the loss of control and collison with obstructions, which really are purely down to the biker, that's about 1/3 of the crashes and of the other 2/3 I doubt you could say every one can be blamed on the other driver or whoever.

[wkid_one]

I have a worse idea - why not introduce the Tax Nazi's to the GPS system presently being trailed in the UK and tax us per KM we do, have an excess speed tax, an overtaking tax, and lane sharing tax, and a rubber left on the road tax

[wkid_one]

Even better - why not get like Minority Report and they just take your license off you the minute you think about buying a bike and empty your bank account?

They could create a proactive and pre-emptive tax system!.  Thanks for the buying the bike, that'll be $19,995 for your 2002 R1 and $5000 in forward paid taxes and fine!  Shit, I hope no government officials are reading this - they may see merit in that!

[aff-man]

Well i was quite surprised when my first rego came i mean a had to pay 1/14 of what my bike was worth just to ride it for 6 months. As to bluninja's comment

"and so at a stroke biker deaths and injuries are removed from the road toll. Hey..such a simple solution and costs nothing to implement. If the bikers get hacked off, just wind them up some more so they give up riding. "

Young guys who are starting out and have to pay 1/10 of what thier first bike may cost to ride it for 6 months is just silly. So maybe the government has already put into play the whole "if they can't afford to be on the road then all the better for us" plan!!!

[MikeL]

Merv
I wasn't seriously offended by your comment re Ulyssians - my tongue, as usual, was firmly in my cheek when I made that posting. I really don't have any evidence at all to back up my assertions - my experience is limited and may be quite different from the majority. Whether we Ulyssians really are just a bunch of old w*nkers making fools of ourselves is not the point - quite honestly I don't give a damn what others think. But what is interesting, and important, are the facts about accidents/injuries/fatalities by age groups, and the reasons for them. Your observations about younger riders in the past rarely crashing on the road (which is contrary to my gut-feeling but may very well be true) and the number of single-vehicle bike accidents today (which may involve a disproportionately high number of older riders) are the sort of facts that need more analysis.
One more point about older riders: when I got my licence in the late 60s, I did a simple written and oral test for the provisional licence, then for the practical I went 5 minutes round the block on a 50cc moped followed by a bored traffic officer. That licence enabled me to ride any bike onto the road and it has remained valid for over 30 years, during which time I not only rode nothing bigger than 50cc but actually rode nothing at all. At any time I could have legally hopped on a 1000cc sports bike without any further training or check of my riding. Surely a recipe for disaster?? When I started riding again 6 months ago I was acutely aware of my inexperience, and also the inevitable deterioration in eyesight, reaction times etc. I know that I am at greater risk than say a 30 yr old with 10 yrs experience. But perhaps I compensate by my awareness of the risk. And statistically, are there more people like me, than, say 17 yr olds with a death wish riding clapped out bikes with bald tyres and dodgy brakes?? (disclaimer: any resemblance to any person, living or dead, who may appear in this forum is entirely coincidental).
End of rave. I've forgotten what else I was going to say. Must be the Alzheimers again.

[merv]

If you want to check out a few of our rides have you seen my website - I have all the road and adventure stuff loaded going back a few years. Just don't look for the trail and other stuff its not there at the moment.

http://bikemerv.topcities.com/index.html

I haven't got the time to tell you which rides nor who, but I can go through the lists and remember a number of occasions when we were stopping to pick up those that ran off the road. Being the tactful soul I am I usually don't embarrass them by photographing them. Usually on Ulysses rides we aren't going very fast and that is why it amazed me at times - and in many cases these are people I don't know very well so I don't know about their riding background. If they crashed on unexpected gravel patches or something it wouldn't be such a surprise but it has tended to be on plain old ordinary sealed roads.