Those cheesecutter/wire median barriers

[Deano]

Yes, they are installed on the outside of corners to stop errant vehicles leaving the road. No, this doesnt seem like a good idea from a motorcyclists perspective, BUT THESE BARRIERS HAVE NEVER BEEN TESTED ON MOTORBIKES. They are designed for cars and small trucks (i.e. Utes). Motorcyclists are not even considered or discussed when these design decisions are made, and therein lies the problem.

Well, we asked the question, "why are they required to have plastic covers in Europe".

Be interesting to see if it gets raised as an item for debate.

[Drum]

Didnt see that question Deano.
Do you mean plastic coatings over the wire ropes? Ive never heard of this - and the systems being installed here in NZ all come from Europe. In terms of injury to a rider, I dont think it would make much difference as the contact area with the rider wouldnt be significantly different. It may be to stop corrosion from salty atmospheres or similar. Not sure.

[Lou Girardin]

I think thats the point - to the outside of the bend is the direction that everybody slides. Normaly they are put on the outside of bends to stop you falling down the cliff/bank etc.

Given that NZ is a currently mostly reactive when it comes to road safety i.e. generally put up barriers, make things safer etc after someone has had crash. So if well all didnt bin (including cagers) there would be no need for and hence no barriers.

Yes there may be other types of bariers that are safer for motorcyclists but given reactive nature of improvements and the relative (compared to cages) lack of motorcycle crashs why would they even look at a motorcyclist friendly solution. I've been looking at crashes on and off for 5 years (from an engineering perspective) and never seen a motorcycle crash (I know they are there though). Basically we need to have more motorcycle crashes if we want motorcyclist friendly (safety friendly) barriers/roading. Tends to suggest that you have to scarifice your bodies for your fellow/next generation biker if you want them to be safer.

The only other way is lobby groups (BRONZ etc) but there are just not enough bikers and hence leverage/voters to get things to happen. It all comes down to cost, "cheese cutters" provide the same benefits as armco when slightly more deflection is OK but for a cheaper price.

R

Sorry, but you are sounding like the Govt bodies. I'd take my chances with sliding over a bank rather than being dismemembered.
And seeing we make up 9% of fatalities, as far as I'm concerned that's enough reason for us to be considered. Perhaps a charge of criminal nuisance laid at Transit as a result of a preventable fatal on one of these barriers would focus their minds on road safety for all.
The Govt should also take a look at the burgeoning motorcycle registration figures, they're all voters. Not to mention the number of baby-boomers on bikes.
The only thing stopping an effective lobby group against policies is the inaction of the incumbents. Bronz etc.

[cooneyr]

Sorry, but you are sounding like the Govt bodies. I'd take my chances with sliding over a bank rather than being dismemembered.
And seeing we make up 9% of fatalities, as far as I'm concerned that's enough reason for us to be considered. Perhaps a charge of criminal nuisance laid at Transit as a result of a preventable fatal on one of these barriers would focus their minds on road safety for all.
The Govt should also take a look at the burgeoning motorcycle registration figures, they're all voters. Not to mention the number of baby-boomers on bikes.
The only thing stopping an effective lobby group against policies is the inaction of the incumbents. Bronz etc.

Sorry for sounding like a Govt body but I guess that is what happens when you do work for them.

We dont help outselves with the 9% of all fatalitles either. Dont know the figures but if you considered the number of bike fatalitles per 100 million bike kilometers travelled versus the number of fatatiltes per 100 million vehicle kilometers travelled I suspect bike would be significantly higher i.e. we are more prone to crashing either though our own fault or others. Basically you are a considered a stupid prick if you ride.

I've got it! - they think we are all stupid pricks and have designed a system to get us all off the road hence if we are all dead then cant complain or crash anymore! Drum (you sound like a "civil" fulla as well) is also right - they have never been tested with bikes.

R

[Lou Girardin]

Their own figures are showing something different. Most of our fatals are on dry, fine days during daylight and in urban areas. The cause is usually failing to look and failing to give way. It's not said, but clearly inferred that cagers are at fault.

[sAsLEX]

Didnt see that question Deano.
Do you mean plastic coatings over the wire ropes? Ive never heard of this - and the systems being installed here in NZ all come from Europe. In terms of injury to a rider, I dont think it would make much difference as the contact area with the rider wouldnt be significantly different. It may be to stop corrosion from salty atmospheres or similar. Not sure.

No the plastic , think hard white stuff like gutter plastic I suppose, is designed to cover the structure and stop you from making contact with the poles and the wires of the cheesecutters which would result in limbs being caught up or removed, and providing a nice big surface to impact against.

[The_Dover]

Basically you are a considered a stupid prick if you ride.

I don't think riding has anything to do with it!!

I remember when these barriers were first introduced in the UK and they were flicking the crashed vehicles back into the carriageway from whence they had come, I would assume that is the stage at which they decided to introduce the collapsible posts.

In that case the majority of installations that I have seen of this type in NZ (mostly on SH1 between Auckland and Hamilhole) are probably more dangerous than no barrier. If a car were to hit the barrier and still end up in the opposite lane then what are the odds of the reverse happening as every fucker tries to avoid the pile up coming the other way?

[TLDV8]

I've got it! - they think we are all stupid pricks and have designed a system to get us all off the road hence if we are all dead then cant complain or crash anymore! Drum (you sound like a "civil" fulla as well) is also right - they have never been tested with bikes.

I think it would be more like some faceless consultants (ie have no idea/non accountable) sitting around a table and one saying,our projection suggests 12.23 lives might be saved per 1 dead motocyclist which is deemed exceptable...Reality says,hit one on a bike and you are fucked,slide into one and you are fucked.It is all about money and little to do with safety.
I simply take extra precaution including checking the mirrors for tailgaters to reduce the chance of getting shunted into them.

[cooneyr]

I think it would be more like some faceless consultants (ie have no idea/non accountable) sitting around a table and one saying,our projection suggests 12.23 lives might be saved per 1 dead motocyclist which is deemed exceptable...

faceless consultants - I dont know any of those. I do however know a few who talk about the 0.23 crashes If your talking about rates then ok to have parts of crashes but when you talk about absolutes then no such thing as a part crash.

It is all about weighing up the options. The argument applies to barriers either some cages die when they fall off the road or some bikers die when the hit the barrier. Lesser of two (w)eviles but of course depends on your perspective. Same applies to The_Dovers statement

I remember when these barriers were first introduced in the UK and they were flicking the crashed vehicles back into the carriageway from whence they had come

Either you have a "few" head on crashes without the central barriers or "lots" of nose to tail crashes with the barriers. The logic is that every crash has an associated cost (both life and monetary) and that better to have "lots" of nose to tails than "few" headons. I know if I had a choice what type of crash I would be involved in - the nose to tail. All to do with converging speed.

In the end once it has been decided to do something then it becomes question of cost versus benefit as I mentioned. Dont get me wrong I'm as keen as the next man to get the goverment to spend more money on roads. Means more work for me and the other "faceless consultants", gets works done so the public get to feel nice about the improvement and everybody's happy (except the person who lost their land).

I've got to learn to keep my mouth (fingers) shut from now on with topics like this. I'm not saying that the installation of the "cheese cutter" barriers is the correct thing to do (I completely understand where you are comming from - I do ride a bike) but just explaining the logic.

Have a nice day all.

R

[Lou Girardin]

Like I said, Transit has to be shown that the cost/benefit ratio may not be so good if they end up in court. If only bikers had a lobby group.

[mdooher]

Why is it that idiots at transit and other govt departments for that matter always try the same thing here years after they have been found not to work in other countries?

Cheese cutter has been banned in almost all EEC countries. They went through the same thing we did...started putting it down the centre of multi lane roads and ended up with it both sides of off ramps.

The reason they banned it is that something like 95% of all motorcycle crashes into the stuff resulted in amputation (either limb or head).

What is so special about NZ that we have "New Zealand Conditions" Do we not have motorcyclists with arms or heads? Oh now I remember the main difference is that our stupid roading engineers only read 5 year old reports.

Why not use the latest...because they are two fucking scared to come up with a new idea. They always use someone else’s research and don't bother to find out how well it has actually stood the test of time.

For fuck sake they are supposed to be engineers! Any accountant with a pocket calculator could follow 5 year old recommendations from Sweden.

Yeah .... my spleen feels much better...thanks for asking

[cooneyr]

Why is it that idiots at transit and other govt departments for that matter always try the same thing here years after they have been found not to work in other countries?

Cheese cutter has been banned in almost all EEC countries. They went through the same thing we did...started putting it down the centre of multi lane roads and ended up with it both sides of off ramps.

The reason they banned it is that something like 95% of all motorcycle crashes into the stuff resulted in amputation (either limb or head).

What is so special about NZ that we have "New Zealand Conditions" Do we not have motorcyclists with arms or heads? Oh now I remember the main difference is that our stupid roading engineers only read 5 year old reports.

Why not use the latest...because they are two fucking scared to come up with a new idea. They always use someone else’s research and don't bother to find out how well it has actually stood the test of time.

For fuck sake they are supposed to be engineers! Any accountant with a pocket calculator could follow 5 year old recommendations from Sweden.

Yeah .... my spleen feels much better...thanks for asking

NZ use to lead the world in many facets when it came to planning and design. You can thank the goverment for ditching the Ministry of Works in 1989 for the backwards step. All to do with the high costs again. Lost a huge amount of knowledge in the process too (not that I'm old enough to have been a member of the MOW crowd).

Had an older gentlemen from Transit tell me a year or so ago that only reciently has the real cost of projects started to reach what it did in 1989. Pitty about all the shitty work that has occured in the interum and still occurs (and I'm talking about more than barriers).

R

[TLDV8]

On a slight tangent but based on the same cookie cutter they use for most things relating to motorcyclists........ I copied this from a post by Steve on TLZone....... The cookie cutter knows no boundries,taking note of the "last" item on the Key Selection Criteria.

Want a job with VicRoads?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Applications Close: 18/08/2006
Work Type: Full Time
Salary: VRO4 - $57,481 - $69,935
Division: Business Operations
Location: Kew

Primary Job Purpose:

Crashes involving motorcyclists are one of the most intransigent road safety problems. It is challenging to devise and implement effective countermeasures. To address this, a Victorian Motorcycle Road Safety Strategy has been developed. In addition the Motorcycle Safety Levy is funding initiatives to the value of $4 million per annum to improve safety of motorcyclists.

Develop, implement and evaluate road safety countermeasures related to motorcycle licensing, training, safety and deterrence measures. A particular focus will be management of projects funded under the Motorcycle Safety Levy

* Provide functional, advisory and other services, supporting operational projects of the Vulnerable Road Users branch of the Road Safety Department, aimed at reducing the incidence and severity of motorcycle crashes
* Monitor and report on motorcycle crash data and trends for internal and external information.

Key Selection Criteria:

1. A relevant degree qualification and/or significant experience relevant to the position
2. Demonstrated high level interpersonal, communication (written and oral) skills including sound experience in preparation of priority correspondence, committee papers and contracts and a well developed ability to relate effectively to a wide range internal and external stakeholders at all levels
3. Demonstrated sound project planning/management and contract management skills having due regard to quality and timelines
4. Demonstrated ability to work both independently and within a project team
5. An understanding and appreciation of the political contexts in which road safety programs and initiatives are developed and delivered
6. Proven ability to use standard desktop applications - Word, Lotus Notes, Excel, PowerPoint, etc and knowledge of road crash information systems or similar information systems.

Desirable:

7. Knowledge of motorcycling and safety issues

For further information regarding this position, please contact Barry on (03) 9854 2726.

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------

[WINJA]

still a lot of people complaining about these wire barriers but ltsa had a budget so the y bought what represented best value , does everyone go into a shop and buy a top of the line arai or shoei helmet ? no you buy what the budget allows , they were damned if they do and damned if they dont and i think it was a good decesion , if you think they are that dangerous then take an alternative route or adjust your speed to the conditions , im glad these barriers are between my wife and kid and some truckdriver who has 2 log books and been on the road for 30 hours straight driving towards them , they are designed to protect 95% of the poulation and on that basis they do there job well.
and when on my bike im actually more worried about some 80 yo stupid bitch crossing the centre line and hitting me than me hitting those barriers, dont forget guys motorcycling is a bit dangerous , if you dont like danger then go to the fast fours and rotary website

[The_Dover]

if you dont like danger then go to the fast fours and rotary website

have you got a url for that site WINJA?