Doctors Strike - Right Wrong?

[Winston001]

Can't see a thread on the strike itself.

So, whaddaya reckon? Fair enough? Or greedy young people wanting everything their way?

As I understand it, the hospital boards are tied into staffing levels for junior doctors which are out of kilter with actual need. For example, 9 doctors on a roster when 4 - 5 are needed?

Yes they work long hours - but they often aren't actually working at all. A senior Christchurch doctor related the example of a junior doctor who reports in, hands his pager to a mate - and goes rock climbing for the rest of his shift. Great work if you can get it.

What is unsaid is that many junior doctors fly off to other hospitals when off-roster and work as locums which is very well-paid. But they are exhausted when they return to work and blame it on their employing hospital.

Furthermore the doctors rep, Deborah Powell has agreed - on Closeup - that NZ junior doctors lead the world for their conditions of work. In other words, they are better off here than in Oz, UK, and USA.

[Str8 Jacket]

I had a very similar attitude to you until someone said to me just the other day, "if they dont strike they will probably never get a pay rise". That got me thinking, now im undecided.... Im not a doctor so I dont know what there job really consist of, all I know is that a large majority think they dont get paid enough for what they do!

[Ixion]

Well, I am the last person to question the right of a worker to strike.

However.

These particular workers are already well paid compared to much of society. And have an expectation of almost guaranteed automatic pay rises to VERY high levels - certainly higher than is justifiable.

And they are in a community-essential job - which they knew when they took it on.

And the conditions are (as noted) nowhere near as bad as they try to maintain. There are a HELL of a lot of workers being paid a fraction of what they are , and working in jobs where tiredness could be a major public safety hazard, who have much worse conditions.

And there are plenty of ways to put pressure on an employer , other than a stright forward strike.

So, no, I don't think strike action is justified here, and I wouldn't have been calling for it if I were a job delegate.

[James Deuce]

$18/hr isn't good pay.

[Krayy]

I'm a bit biased, as my mum has been knocked back on a (life saving) operation that was scheduled for the 20th

I feel for them. I used to do shift work and it f**ked me over big time physically and mentally, but all the docs at once? How about a phased strike which would affect only certain areas rather than the whole damn lot at once.

Hope the govt fronts up the readies to finish it up quick. Ask that c**t Cullen if he can chip in 8% of his rise to fix the prob.

[Beemer]

What I find difficult to reconcile is the fact that these junior doctors are still learning their trade and yet they are expected to work such long hours. I don't think it's just about the money - it's about having some quality of life and not making mistakes because you are so damned tired you can't think straight. Truck drivers aren't allowed to work such long hours and while I can see that a truckie dropping off to sleep could have terrible consequences, surely a junior doctor making a mistake could be just as bad?

I had to go to hospital last week for a jaw operation. I pay a fortune for medical insurance so I don't have to spend years on waiting lists so I was lucky enough to go private, but I still have to find about $1000 to pay the balance the insurer doesn't cover.

I think it is criminal that so many potentially life-threatening operations have been put off but I don't blame the junior doctors, I blame the hospital system and the big wigs who run it. Striking may be the only way anything changes.

[Lou Girardin]

As an 'organ donor' (bike rider), I'm damn sure that if I end up at A+E I want my Doctor to be bright eyed and bushy-tailed raring to save my life.
Not someone asleep on his/her feet.

[The_Dover]

As an 'organ donor' (bike rider), I'm damn sure that if I end up at A+E I want my Doctor to be bright eyed and bushy-tailed raring to save my life.
Not someone asleep on his/her feet.

Next you're going to tell us you want them to speak fluent, comprehensible english too, right Lou?

Keep dreaming...

[Karma]

Next you're going to tell us you want them to speak fluent, comprehensible english too, right Lou?

Keep dreaming...

Well she could at least be fit and wearing a skimy outfit

[Winston001]

What I find difficult to reconcile is the fact that these junior doctors are still learning their trade and yet they are expected to work such long hours. I don't think it's just about the money - it's about having some quality of life and not making mistakes because you are so damned tired you can't think straight. Truck drivers aren't allowed to work such long hours and while I can see that a truckie dropping off to sleep could have terrible consequences, surely a junior doctor making a mistake could be just as bad?

Yes and I used to think the same. Three points:

1. Young doctors don't nescessarily "work" while on shift. They just have to be available, so they can be asleep as long as they can respond to a page. So the long hours aren't exactly correct.

2. Doctors don't work the hours they used to. Until fairly recently, 80 - 100 hour weeks were the norm. That's too much and it has been cut down.

3. There is a reason for the long hours. The principle is that doctors need to learn how to respond and use their training under stress. Medical work in the real world will involve emergencies at any time. Medical calls don't coincide with shifts. So a young doctor has to experience the stress in a safe environment before being allowed out into the big wide world.

This training through stress is accepted by doctors world-wide as being highly effective. NZ has simply inheirited the system from other countries. Sounds horrific but it seems to work. I have doctor friends who agree.

However for a more informed view here is an article by Atul Gawande http://www.slate.com/id/2666/ This surgeon is worth reading on other medical topics too. Just bear in mind that NZ doctors are way ahead of US doctors on thjis issue and have already achieved reduced hours.

[Hitcher]

I am a bit conflicted on this matter.

Part of me supports the right of people to strike for better terms and conditions of employment.

Another part of me sees the "plight" of junior doctors as a rite of passage that they have to endure before gaining their wings and gouging health consumers and accumulating unimaginable wealth over the balance of their careers. What's wrong with "paying it forward" to taxpayers and prospective patients?

[ZeroIndex]

all they need to do is cut back on TVNZ 7pm programs (campbell or whatever).. judy bailey getting $700,000 a year and what not.. redistribute the money to the people who deserve it..

[Swoop]

all they need to do is cut back on TVNZ 7pm programs (campbell or whatever).. judy bailey getting $700,000 a year and what not.. redistribute the money to the people who deserve it..

No, What they need to do is get rid of the paper pushers in the health sector.
The equivalent of 1 administrator for every bed is simply over the top.

[Paul in NZ]

With regards to employment law.. My leanings are to the left rather than the right.. I believe that given the opportunity, most large organisations will trend to disadvantaging their employees rather than clients.

However, in regards to the medical profession...

For many years they have maintained one of the strongest trade unions and maintained a stranglehold on their market. They have limited the numbers of doctors and lined their pockets very very well.

I have a generally low opinion of the lot of them quite frankly and their political arm... humpf..

[James Deuce]

However, in regards to the medical profession...

For many years they have maintained one of the strongest trade unions and maintained a stranglehold on their market. They have limited the numbers of doctors and lined their pockets very very well.

Centuries actually. Pretty much since they started burning midwives as witches in the 12th Century.

Mind you I don't really object to burning midwives all that much, but Doctors have REALLY lost their way since they came up with that concept, their one good idea to date.