Now they have gone TOO far methinks...

[Hitcher]

There is an underclass in New Zealand that most of us are able to avoid or ignore on a day to day basis. They generally only engage with mainstream media when shit happens -- like the Kahui twins' murder, pit bull attacks, drive-by shootings, battering to death of pizza deliverers, etc. At which stage the "rest of us" get outraged and bay for justice, hanging and other forms of retribution.

New Zealand as a society is way too accepting of this sort of shit. Just look at our domestic violence and child abuse stats; the third-world diseases that are killing our kids; the "lifestyle" issues that impact negatively on those who can't help themselves (casinos, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, crappy diets, lack of exercise, etc); and the perverse impacts that Government "assistance" programmes have.

We like to make ourselves feel better by getting outraged about lightning rod symptoms -- like the Kahui twins -- but not really wanting to focus on or address the underlying causes. Why is that?

[Finn]

There is an underclass in New Zealand that most of us are able to avoid or ignore on a day to day basis. They generally only engage with mainstream media when shit happens -- like the Kahui twins' murder, pit bull attacks, drive-by shootings, battering to death of pizza deliverers, etc. At which stage the "rest of us" get outraged and bay for justice, hanging and other forms of retribution.

New Zealand as a society is way too accepting of this sort of shit. Just look at our domestic violence and child abuse stats; the third-world diseases that are killing our kids; the "lifestyle" issues that impact negatively on those who can't help themselves (casinos, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, crappy diets, lack of exercise, etc); and the perverse impacts that Government "assistance" programmes have.

We like to make ourselves feel better by getting outraged about lightning rod symptoms -- like the Kahui twins -- but not really wanting to focus on or address the underlying causes. Why is that?

It's taken you almost 8000 posts to finally say something that actually makes sense.

You all growns up now. Well done Bitcher!

[emaN]

Sickening.
Sickening that two little people lost their lives.
Sickening how two babies can be left, vulnerable,unfed,uncared for, for 12hours.
Sickening how no adults in the two houses took responsibility for the twins.
Sickening they were handed back the twins for the tangi.
Sickening the family actively&purposefully held a meeting.
Sickening they aren't co-operating & choose to converse in another language.
(I like spoken Maori, but there's a time & place...for everything)
Sickening the two households are on @$2000 a week, in benefits.

Frustrating - this isn't an isolated case.
Fustrating that people can live on my taxes year in, year out.
Frustrating that we're becoming more & more multi-cultural and divisive.
Frustrating that we have to 'import' workers from Europe to pick our damned fruit from orchards crying out for pickers.
Most of all, frustrating that 'some' have no sense of value on life, and none to pass on to their offspring.

To be educated, to have a work ethic, to have self-respect; are these too much to expect from all humans?!

[Finn]

emaN, read Hitcher's post.

...Frustrating that we don't do anything about it.

[Ixion]

There is an underclass in New Zealand that most of us are able to avoid or ignore on a day to day basis. They generally only engage with mainstream media when shit happens -- like the Kahui twins' murder, pit bull attacks, drive-by shootings, battering to death of pizza deliverers, etc. At which stage the "rest of us" get outraged and bay for justice, hanging and other forms of retribution.

New Zealand as a society is way too accepting of this sort of shit. ,,[snip] but not really wanting to focus on or address the underlying causes. Why is that?

Not me. I bay for justice, hanging and other forms of retribution all the time.

As for the underlying causes? The underlying cause is simple. There are a lot of people (lot = maybe 5% of the population) who are parasitic and sub human. And I use that last word very advisedly. They have no place or business in any society and should be removed expeditiously .

It is a load of hokum that such "people" can be "rehabilitated". And that "it is all society's fault". Some "people" are not really people at all. They are bad to the bone and nothing is ever going to change that. In fairness to the rest of society they should be eliminated. Nothing to do with justice, it's simple eugenics.

Elimination of the parasitic 5% of the population would greatly improve life for the other 95%, with no adverse effects (except to the 5% of course, but they don't warrant any consideration)

Vote for a Communist government - the only ones who won't put up with this sort of shit.

[Hitcher]

You all growns up now. Well done Bitcher!

High praise indeed. From a Southlander...

[Hitcher]

Elimination of the parasitic 5% of the population would greatly improve life for the other 95%, with no adverse effects (except to the 5% of course, but they don't warrant any consideration)

This 5% of which you speak. Would that be an annual target?

Half of New Zealand's population (plus or minus) has below-average intelligence. Surprisingly for some, removing the lower quartile in its entirety would not change that outcome. Similarly your "final solution" for New Zealand's underclass, while attractively simple, would achieve not a jot unless there were measures in place to stop the void created by their departure being filled by others.

[The_Dover]

Hey Finn, is Ixion talking about us?

[Winston001]

Nothing to do with justice, it's simple eugenics.

Elimination of the parasitic 5% of the population would greatly improve life for the other 95%, with no adverse effects (except to the 5% of course, but they don't warrant any consideration)

The trouble is, as Hitcher says, every time you drop off 5%, you are left with a new 5% of the rest. And they won't measure up either.

I can't agree with your view that 5% of any human population are bad although it is an easy explanation. No-one is fundamentally bad, but they become that way for all sorts of reasons.

Yes, there are probably 2% who have mental/physical illnesses or plain thick who cannot help themselves. The measure of a society is how well it protects the weak and helpless.

Right now NZ measures well against the Third World but no bloody good against Western nations in terms of child welfare.

[Winston001]

Winston, what happens with this sort of thing is the white middle class (or brown, or yellow, or scallop pearl) families end up being prevented by law from disciplining their children effectively. Nothing else changes. Laws only affect those who chose to abide by them.

The dob in a child abuser scheme is about as clever and trustworthy as the dob in a driver scheme.

Yeah I know but the dob-in scheme is at least a start.

Realistically we have to abandon anyone over the age of 15 in terms of changing behaviour. But under that age, we can introduce education in schools, teaching children that bashing and getting the bash are not normal behaviours. As if teachers don't have enough to do already.

I'm aware of the underclass and deal with them from time to time. It is true that they have no conception of basic decency because they haven't experienced it at home.

[buellbabe]

I never agreed with getting rid of the Death Penalty...

[Ixion]

This 5% of which you speak. Would that be an annual target?

Half of New Zealand's population (plus or minus) has below-average intelligence. Surprisingly for some, removing the lower quartile in its entirety would not change that outcome. Similarly your "final solution" for New Zealand's underclass, while attractively simple, would achieve not a jot unless there were measures in place to stop the void created by their departure being filled by others.

Invalid comparison. By definition average is a moving target. Whereas the basics of human decency are a constant (eg - not killing babies). Removing baby killers and such from society won't automatically make other people into baby killers. Your argument necessarily presumes that "it's all society's fault" . that there is something about "society" that will inescapably create a certain percentage of baby killers, and that otherwise good people are turned into babykillers (or whatever) by this mysterious miasma.

Don't agree. If you have X number of defects (babykillers, say) in society, then removing those baby killers won't automatically cause other previously decent people to turn into baby killers. You simply end up with a better society.

Animal breeders know that every so often animals will produce a "rogue". A beast that's just bad from the word go. So with humans. And the solution is the same. On an ongoing basis, after the initial purge, it would be necessary to cull a few rogues each year. But not many , a fraction of one percent. We only have the rogues now because we have encouraged them ,and, worse, encouraged them to breed. I suppose if you're of the wimpy persuasion you could say , just sterilise the defects. But I'm a simple soul, I prefer a simple bullet.

'Tis not a value judgement. Just basic logic. Some "people" choose not to add ANY value to society. Never have and never will. Haven't earned a place in society by past performance (like the old, or sick) , have no prospect of pulling their weight in the future (like the young) . Therefore society is better off eliminating them. They don't even deserve to be classified as people.

And I'm NOT talking about the mentally, or physically, handicapped. For the most part they are usually quite decent people - with limitations, but there's no reason why they can't fill a useful role in society - and many of them do. I have a lot of time for those classifed as "handicapped". i've hired quite a few of them in the past , and never regretted it. They are almost always damned hard workers (within their limitations) and , if you make a few simple allowances, good people. They can and do contribute to sociey. Perhaps to a more limited extent than others, but that's OK.

I follow the basic Communist tenet - workers , not shirkers. : "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". If your ability is limited , but you're giving it your best shot, that's all good.And if your ability is not sufficient to earn a living, then society will come to the party to help out. But, if you have the ability (ie no excuses) and won't contribute - then society has no place for you. All it should have for you is a bullet.

[The_Dover]

A beast that's just bad from the word go.

Is that me again?

quite decent people - with limitations, but there's no reason why they can't fill a useful role in society

Definitely you Finn.

[WINJA]

so what about the dumb bitch with no arms legs or husband getting pregnant , she should get the bullet right

[Ixion]

,,,

I can't agree with your view that 5% of any human population are bad although it is an easy explanation. No-one is fundamentally bad, but they become that way for all sorts of reasons.

Yes, there are probably 2% who have mental/physical illnesses or plain thick who cannot help themselves. The measure of a society is how well it protects the weak and helpless.

,,

Yes, some ARE fundamentally bad. And they are NOT the ones with illnesses or "too thick". They are the perfectly healthy, usually quite intelligent ones who just prefer to be parasites. You only have to look at the behaviour of the "tight twelve' to plainly see that they are NOT lacking in cunning. Nor are they mentally or physically ill. They have elected to be parasites. And should be eliminated, they same way that a farmer will eliminate parasites like hydatid worms.