Maybe the 2 stroke isn't dead??

**2_SL0** · 1st July 2006, 19:57

Originally Posted by Motu

About time Evinrude caught up! I remember when I pulled the heads off a 135HP V4 Evinrude - I nearly fell over....they had deflector pistons!!! Ha,ha,ha! Oh man,like 1920's technology on the '80's!

That particular engine for Evinrude was developed in the 70's. It was carried thru to the mid 1990's. It was a very reliable engine, a large amount of commercial fisherman ran them. They also had a v4 that was loop charged, it ran concurrently with the crossflow engine. But Ill stop raving and go back to my corner.

**Motu** · 1st July 2006, 20:18

All the American outboards had deflector pistons - so did the Britsh Seagull and British Anzani,but at least they made no pretense at being modern.They made the HP and ran reliably,I just wonder why the Americans were so reluctant to take on ''modern'' developments like loop scavange....I mean,everyone else reaped the rewards of DKW reshearch after WWII.You know your outboards,I've only dabbled with what was brought to me,is there any reason they didn't use loop scavange....I'm not knocking,I'm genuinely interested.

**terbang** · 1st July 2006, 20:52

Detroit Diesels were 2 strokes though they used exhaust valves and induction was via supercharged porting.
I have a real soft spot for 2 stroke bikes and have owned a couple of RD350's and a H2 750. They were high in hooligan factor though I still have a few scars..

**2_SL0** · 1st July 2006, 21:15

Originally Posted by Motu

All the American outboards had deflector pistons - so did the Britsh Seagull and British Anzani,but at least they made no pretense at being modern.They made the HP and ran reliably,I just wonder why the Americans were so reluctant to take on ''modern'' developments like loop scavange....I mean,everyone else reaped the rewards of DKW reshearch after WWII.You know your outboards,I've only dabbled with what was brought to me,is there any reason they didn't use loop scavange....I'm not knocking,I'm genuinely interested.

They stuck with cross for a reasonable amount of time due to the fact it had good idling characteristics. Depending on which hp you looked at some were cross some were loop. Certainly in the bigger hp's a large percentage of them were crossflow. There were certain running characteristic problems with the loopers, certainly in the early years (early for the outboard loopers) they had problems with idling/off idle operation. This was related to the exhausting/scavenging design. As years went by, these thing were overcome. But prob the flipside of this is the fact non of these companies do anything unless they have to. Direct injected two strokes came about from pressure from EPA. All the other crap (better fuel economy, lower oil usage, turn key starting) is a by product. If the EPA had not pressured these companies they would all continue to build conventional 2 strokes.
Someone mentioned that the Etec has a "No Service for 3 yrs" advertisement.
Its purely a marketing plow to build up coinfidence in the product. When Ficht was realised it developed a pretty bad name for it self, people lost coinfidence. Etec is really just Ficht slightly further down the revolutionary chain.
Like any bussiness they dont spend money unless they have to, I guess they stuck with cross purely because it did the job.

Just to add to this, Yamaha also currently has 2 stroke direct injected outboards, they are referred to as HPDI (High pressure direct injection) The running quality is not as nice a Etec. They have only deployed it to large capacity outboards due to its bulk and cost. The technology to watch is the Etec, its a simple design, using a Ficht Injecter. It can be deployed on any hp engine, (Even down to a small 2hp, Example Lawn mower engine) This is more than likely the type of technology that may appear in the motorcycle industry.) However like all things its the politics behind it that really drive what happens.

**Motu** · 1st July 2006, 21:45

They also used massive amounts of ignition advance.....or retard,the movement of the baseplate at least,far more than a motorcycle which often have no advance at all.All for idle I take it.

**2_SL0** · 1st July 2006, 23:04

Yeah, the ignition timing on a outboard at idle is easily advanced to enhance the low speed running. It is advanced further for highspeed timing.It isnt uncommon to advance low speed ignition 2-5 degress from spec to enhance the idle at low speed.
I can say no more, as my cover is blown, lololol.

**WINJA** · 1st July 2006, 23:26

Originally Posted by Motu

Two stroke diesels have always used crankcase lubrication like a 4 stroke - but for a petrol engine it needs direct injection,that's where the next development will come from.They have been made,technology just needs to catch up.

AND DONT THEY NEED FORCED INDUCTION TO GET THEM STARTED

**avgas** · 1st July 2006, 23:55

2 stroke isnt dead, its dying - the current technology is not being marketted properly.
There was a rumor that lotus tried to get in bed with Bimota with this over their 500cc injected 2 stroke.....instead it ran a 700cc 4 stroke.
MotoGp is a joke, and no fun. Bring back the smokers

**2_SL0** · 2nd July 2006, 08:54

Originally Posted by avgas

2 stroke isnt dead, its dying - the current technology is not being marketted properly.
There was a rumor that lotus tried to get in bed with Bimota with this over their 500cc injected 2 stroke.....instead it ran a 700cc 4 stroke.
MotoGp is a joke, and no fun. Bring back the smokers

Your only looking at a small picture of 2 stroke.

**SlowHand** · 2nd July 2006, 09:10

Originally Posted by Kawagreen

Your only looking at a small picture of 2 stroke.

Now, tell us something about the gas used to run these fine animals.

hehe. that'd keep your head busy for the day. Excellent

**XTC** · 2nd July 2006, 16:34

Ummm yeah that's great kawagreen but I have yet to see an Evinrude motorcycle on sale in the us for use on the road.......

KiwiBIKER not KiwiBoater.

**2_SL0** · 2nd July 2006, 17:27

Hmm, really, Evinrude is owned by Bombardier maybe take a look at what also they manufacture. Plus technology can be transferred, my point being the two stroke is far from DEAD, and in present form (Etec) is able to meet and exceed the California emission regulations.

**2_SL0** · 2nd July 2006, 17:40

Originally Posted by XTC

Ummm yeah that's great kawagreen but I have yet to see an Evinrude motorcycle on sale in the us for use on the road.......

KiwiBIKER not KiwiBoater.

My responce is to the general statement of the 2 stroke not yet dead. I also believe you stated it does not meet the emission regulations for California, where as I have indicated their is a two stroke "engine" on the market that does meet these very standards.
Evinrude is owned by Bombardier family group, maybe take a look at what also they manufacture. Plus technology can be transferred, the ficht technology was "leased" (wrong term) to Suzuki, who incorporated into their personal watercraft. What Im trying to get across is this technology would be easily transplanted into a motorcycle. (Very Easily). Certain four strokes struggle to meet certain standards of emissions where as a direct injected two stroke does it easily.