Police working to a quota?? Surely not...

[hsvboy06]

There is no way that 12 k's over the limit puts anyone in danger.

Perhaps, but what if they increased the limit to 120, then everyone would just go 130+. The fact is there needs to be a line drawn, and if everyone would abide by it (even if it is "too slow") then we'd all be better off.
Do you think it is ok for me to rob a bank if I only take a little bit of money? Afterall, it wouldn't really hurt anyone.

And riding at the same speed as every homicidal cager just enables them to be more likely to involve you in their stupidity.

Let's assume that in reality not every cage driver is homicidal (although we usually assume they are). If I travel 50km staying in the line of traffic, in theory I might only really "meet" 2 cages - 1 in front and 1 behind, both of which would be well aware of my presence. If I was to go faster, I could potentially "meet" 100 cages, all of which I'd be surprising, and riding through their blind spots. I think the chances of me meeting a real homicidal cager would be far higher. Personally I think I'll take my chances with the 2.

[Swoop]

The faster you go, the bigger the mess.

Good to see the message has got through to you... the brainwashing message.

Shit driving is the killer. And "kiwis" know how to drive very poorly.

If speeds in excess of 100kmh are deadly, then all motorsport MUST be banned immediately. Formula 1, Moto GP, V8 supercars? Are they insane!!!

[Squeak the Rat]

WoF inpectors work to a ''target'' too.LTNZ monitor our pass/fail rate - if you pass or fail too many they'll come and have a look at you - you need to pass some,and fail some,25% fail rate is good....I have a 50% fail rate....is that better?

Some one please tell me that licence testers also have to fail 25% of applicants. Sadly I think not.....

[Squeak the Rat]

Perhaps, but what if they increased the limit to 120, then everyone would just go 130+. The fact is there needs to be a line drawn, and if everyone would abide by it (even if it is "too slow") then we'd all be better off.
Do you think it is ok for me to rob a bank if I only take a little bit of money? Afterall, it wouldn't really hurt anyone.

When they raised the speed limit on the interstates in America it cut the road toll. How do you figure that in your logic?

It worked like this - they realised that fatalities were a result of a combination of factors. Not just speed. Two of the key ones were drivers mental state, and road condition. Answer, build good roads and get the driver there quicker, therefore encouraging them to use the good roads legally and in a safe (and happy) manner.

Speed is a factor sure, but only a factor and sometimes a minor one. Strictly enforcing an arbitrary speed limit is not the answer.

[spudchucka]

That is not the point. If enforcement is the silver bullet, it would be reducing accident rates overall. But we know it's not.
That's the embarrassment for your bosses.
It's a bit like the Yanks 'winning' in Vietnam by focussing on the body count, all the while they were losing the war.

So what is the answer?

I'm quite satisfied that if the cops weren't out there enforcing speed limits and other road rules the road tolls would be a hell of a lot worse than they are now.

However, the cops, govt & LTNZ are going to have to find something else to blame it on soon, rather than just speed, because the average driver HAS defineately slowed down a great deal over the last few years.

[spudchucka]

Of the Crimes Act?

Roger!!!!!!

[Squeak the Rat]

So what is the answer?

I'm quite satisfied that if the cops weren't out there enforcing speed limits and other road rules the road tolls would be a hell of a lot worse than they are now.

However, the cops, govt & LTNZ are going to have to find something else to blame it soon, on rather than just speed, because the average driver HAS defineately slowed down a great deal over the last few years.

There are many, that's the problem. But speed enforement happens to be the most cost effective so gets all the attention and funding.

[hsvboy06]

Good to see the message has got through to you... the brainwashing message.

Shit driving is the killer. And "kiwis" know how to drive very poorly.

If speeds in excess of 100kmh are deadly, then all motorsport MUST be banned immediately. Formula 1, Moto GP, V8 supercars? Are they insane!!!

Yes, the "brainwashing message" has got through to me. I believe it because it is true. You can't argue with the laws of physics. Would you rather fall off your bike at 50 or 100?

The "killer" is actually your inability to stop or control things when the unpredictable happens. Reaction time is a key ingredient. Speed in itself is not a problem if there is no reason to need to stop. In motorsport, all the cars are going the same way around the track, and all at about the same speed, and it's a lot less likely that a child will run across the track. (If you watched the Canadian F1 GP then you'd have seen Villeneuve crash simply because he came across a much slower moving Ralf Schumaker.) The cars can stop a lot faster than a road car, and the drivers' reaction times are much better than joe public's. In this situation, of course 100 km/h is not deadly, but there is a (much greater) speed that is, and that is why the FIA (in the case of F1) is continually trying to think of ways to slow the cars down.

[spudchucka]

Add to this, Police funding must be completely separated from Police revenue production.

All it needs to be is that the police state how much money they need to operate and achieve the desired outcomes, they negotiate with the govt, settle on a figure and go about their business without the interference of govt or other outside agencies. They get the money from the govt and are answerable to the minister but not directly controlled on a day to day basis by the govt, minister or any other agency that is for the time being holding the purse strings.

The current model has the police getting some $$$ from Govt, some from LTNZ, some from ACC, some from Local Authorities etc etc. Each outside agency that gives funding to the police expects to get their moneys worth, if the police don't deliver they don't get the funding the following year. Why do you think police bosses set targets for traffic enforcement? They have to supply returns to the agencies that fund them.

It is a fundamental problem in applying business principals to the day to day operation of a govt agency that is in effect a pseudo military organisation. In other words..... its a cluster fuck.

[The_Dover]

So do you ride like a complete girl then hsvbitch?

You trying to tell us you never break the speed limit cos it's so inherently dangerous to go over 100km/h??

I'd say whether you hit a solid object at 100km/h or 150km/h you're gonna be pretty fucked so may as well get it over with as quickly as possible.

[spudchucka]

The only thing that will reduce the road toll is if everyone learns to drive/ride within the limits of their vehicle, the road, the conditions and their abilities.

Never a truer word has been spoken on this web site.

[Squeak the Rat]

Yes, the "brainwashing message" has got through to me. I believe it because it is true. You can't argue with the laws of physics. Would you rather fall off your bike at 50 or 100?

So we should lower the open road limit to 50?

[hsvboy06]

So do you ride like a complete girl then hsvbitch?

You trying to tell us you never break the speed limit cos it's so inherently dangerous to go over 100km/h??

I'd say whether you hit a solid object at 100km/h or 150km/h you're gonna be pretty fucked so may as well get it over with as quickly as possible.

Yes, I ride like a complete girl. Next question.

There's nothing magical about the number 100. I'd say it's inherently dangerous to ride faster than a safe speed for the conditions. That has to take into account the speed and presence of other traffic.

If you see a solid object then I'd say you've got a lot more chance of avoiding it (eg stopping) at 100 than you have at 150.

[hsvboy06]

So we should lower the open road limit to 50?

You know that's not what I was suggesting. Simply, if you have an accident, the faster you are going, the more it's going to hurt.

[Swoop]

The only thing that will reduce the road toll is if everyone learns to drive/ride within the limits of their vehicle, the road, the conditions and their abilities.

Correct - so long as people drive within their abilities for the conditions, there will be fewer accidents - the stated speed limit has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

There's nothing magical about the number 100. That has to take into account the speed and presence of other traffic.

If you see a solid object then I'd say you've got a lot more chance of avoiding it (eg stopping) at 100 than you have at 150.

Correct - so long as people drive within their abilities for the conditions, there will be fewer accidents - the stated speed limit has nothing to do with this whatsoever.