Global Warming

[James Deuce]

Add to this: hydrogen can be produced locally anywhere in the world so you can forget import duties, import costs etc. If they take the "Natrium" route they can set up recycling plants all over the place to cut down on transportation costs.

That utopian vision will not happen. Hydrogen will be produced in much the same way petrol is now and it will be VERY much more expensive than petrol.

[Ixion]

I do not understand the enthusiasm for fufuing around with electricity.

Even if all the sources of dino-fuel were exhausted, it is not hard to produce petrol and diesel type fuels (ie fuel suitable for an internal combustion engine) completely synthetically, or from bio-sources.

Synthesis would doubtless be more expensive than pumping it out of the ground, but then the electrical route is more expensive also.

I suspect that we have seen the low point of fuel costs, and that motoring will be more expensive in future. So much the better for bikes.

I said a year or so ago that petrol would have to reach $2.50 per litre to be the same cost in real terms as it was when I started riding: and that when it did, we would see bike usage heading steeply upward.

It's just under $2 now, and sure enough bikes sales are up and up and up.

So why bother messing around with electric cars?

[Pixie]

They are media reports - therefore easier to find - promoted.

They paraphrase scientific jargon into language the layman can understand.

The abridge and summarise the findings rather than present dry data.

Most employ qualified people to do so.

There is no reason not to.

And the opponents are more numerous.

1 Are usually one eyed
2 Usually get it wrong (Arts Degree Journalists)
3 Miss the point
4 Hah!

[Pixie]

I love the arguements I read for the hydrogen economy-

They never state that hydrogen as a fuel source is only ever going to be stored nuclear or fossil fuel energy.
And don't start the wind power bullshit.

Fossil fuels,of course,is just stored sunshine

[Wolf]

That utopian vision will not happen. Hydrogen will be produced in much the same way petrol is now and it will be VERY much more expensive than petrol.

Even if they just had one extraction/recycling plant in NZ as I believe we have for petroleum products. We can extract the hydrogen here in NZ rather than burn shitloads of diesel transporting the crude oil here (major energy expenditure both in terms of the diesel expended and the production costs of said diesel) followed by the energy expended in the refining process (this is on top of the energy expended getting the shit out of the ground and transporting it from the well to the tankerships). All we have to do then is transport hydrogenated Borax to the petrol stations and bringing Borax slurry back to the hydrogenating section of the plant.

As to the cost, I doubt they would make it too much more expensive than petrol - they will want people to buy the stuff.

As the hydrogen can be produced locally and is not dependant on how much OPEC wants for crude oil, the price would be fairly stable barring increases in electricity costs to run the plants, the gummint would have a nice stable tax coming in on the product and will benefit from the fact that the retail price is stable - people will not be racing out to buy motorcycles and pushbikes or walking or taking the bus in response to sudden price increases.

I do not comprehend your assertion that it will be very much dearer than petrol. Even if it takes a kilowatt-hour of electricity to produce a kilowatt-hour's worth of hydrogen, that's not that expensive - it costs me bugger all per kilowatt-hour at my house and I very much doubt I'm getting it at cost - Transpower and Genesis are both getting rich off us. Even with factoring in losses, profit margins, tax etc, it should not be too expensive to the end user - Johnny Public in/on his EV - for hydrogen fuel for their vehicle.

Any one out there know how much petrol a 1-kilowatt Internal Combustion engine uses at peak efficiency in an hour?

And bear in miind that a lot of that petrol is wasted.

[Pixie]

Considering that, every year ,the media get on the lake level bleats;where is the energy for the electrolysis coming from?

[James Deuce]

***utopian denial syndrome***

You're ignoring one point. Corporate greed.

[Winston001]

Considering that, every year ,the media get on the lake level bleats;where is the energy for the electrolysis coming from?

Yep. NZ faces a serious infrastructure problem at the moment. Effectively our economy is stalled because we cannot supply secure future electricity needs. Businesses will not set up new plants without certainty of energy supply - it's fundamental.

All of this tinkering around at the edges with wind power has a feel-good value but actually adds very little to total electricity production.

So we cannot blithely assume that the electricity to run borax plants or hydrogen production plants will just appear when needed. Hydrogen has it's place - essentially it is stored electricity - but national distribution? Nah. Fuel cells have a place too but simplicity is best. The technology already exists for using natural gas and propane to operate engines so methane and bio-fuels have distinct advantages.

Remember much of the world is poor and the best solutions are the cheapest ones. A simple engine using methane from the local rubbish dump can be sustained anywhere.

[Big Dave]

1 Are usually one eyed
2 Usually get it wrong (Arts Degree Journalists)
3 Miss the point
4 Hah!

Maybe in this country.
National Geographic - Time?
Yeah right piss ant interns.

[Wolf]

You're ignoring one point. Corporate greed.

And that's not affecting oil prices? Govt greed is affecting the petrol prices - you don't see the govt saying "oh, the cost per barrel of crude has risen, let's cut down the amount we're currently fleecing the public of (for stuff we didn't produce and contributed nothing to)."

[James Deuce]

And that's not affecting oil prices? Govt greed is affecting the petrol prices - you don't see the govt saying "oh, the cost per barrel of crude has risen, let's cut down the amount we're currently fleecing the public of (for stuff we didn't produce and contributed nothing to)."

Gahh - it must be the fur growing in those ears

[Wolf]

I love the arguements I read for the hydrogen economy-

They never state that hydrogen as a fuel source is only ever going to be stored nuclear or fossil fuel energy.
And don't start the wind power bullshit.

Fossil fuels,of course,is just stored sunshine

No wind power bullshit here. OK, maybe a bit - turbines mounted atop the Beehive to catch the rising hot air...

The only way it would work here is if we had nuclear power - aka "stored nuclear energy".

Yeah, I know, kinda upsets the "clean green" image a bit, but probably not as much as turning yet another scenic forested valley into a boring artificial lake on which noisy powerboats drag water-skiers around.

How's that for non-Utopian, Jim2?

We most likely need nuclear energy now, or certainly will not too long from now. We are not producing sufficient electricity to guarantee supply for our current population and industry.

Modern nuclear power stations have come a long way from 3-Mile Island and Chernobyl, ironically, it's looking like the safest and "greenest" means of electricity production.

And NZ is not the "Nuclear Free" Utopia that many people like to believe it is.

[The_Dover]

And NZ is not the "Nuclear Free" Utopia that many people like to believe it is.

Damn right, you should see our microwave.

Makes Chernobyl look like a wind powered hippy commune.

We could always fossilise some hippies. Those greasy buggers would make good oil.

[Big Dave]

Damn right, you should see our microwave.

Makes Chernobyl look like a wind powered hippy commune.

We could always fossilise some hippies. Those greasy buggers would make good oil.

What about feminists? Can you do anything with them?

[The_Dover]

Sorry Dave, I think that lot are beyond redemption.