Too hot into a corner?

[kiwifruit]

I honestly believe that it takes around 5000kms of
riding any particular bike to know fully what it is capable of and what it's limits are.

I fully agree,
a day or two on the track also installs the "how far it can lean" confidence, so when you do go into hot at least you know the bike can lean more.
Unless of course you are already on the limit of ground clearance or grip.... then it turns a bit pear shaped.

[BeakerRAT]

I agree with Motu, throttle control seems to be the key. As for using the rear brake to try and tighten up in a turn???? I guess it may achieve a weight shift to the rear, but I'm not convinced.

Ideally all braking should be done before entering the turn, but I guess it's what to do when it all goes wrong. Keeping the bike settled and no major inputs, i.e throttle, brake. On the road we should all try to keep some (lots)lean angle available, and know how to use it when needed.

Great thread guys!

[Gremlin]

have heard using your rear brake can tighten your line up on a race track (can someone confirm.. I'll go for a spin soon and see anyway)

I've reckon thats true... try it on a long corner, and not at the limit, it pulls the bike into the corner.

Excellent stuff for "in the moment" so to speak, but people should also, before riding, make sure their suspension is set up properly. It will allow you to do soo much more, with immediate problems.

ie. My front suspension preload was much too soft, so under hard braking, the front would dive (rear gets light), and the braided rear line would only help the rear lock that much faster. Without trying, I could lock the rear just slowing for a traffic light, it was that bad. Stiffened up the preload, and it doesn't lock up on me nearly as easy.

So make sure your bike is also set up properly.

[N4CR]

Well I had a bit of trouble keeping the rear on the ground on my little ride to do errands today so I couldn't confirm the light rear brake application stuff. Sorry.

[Gremlin]

I noticed... your front preload must be extremely soft

And not around the city you ninny... this is more for the country corners. You shouldn't be going that hard around town.

[Motu]

Engine braking and rear wheel braking are two entirely different things,don't confuse them.Engine braking loads the front wheel - try riding in a straight line and throttle off,you are pushed forward and the forks compress.Now do the same with just the rear brake,no load will be transfered to the front wheel,some bikes even squat at the back with the rear brake.

Kenny Roberts has a theory he pushes - ''You'll never lose the front wheel if you're on the gas''....I'd like to bet that 95% of those riders who go down losing the front wheel have a closed throttle.Sure,there are cases where KR's theory is wrong,and I've had many falls from losing the front wheel in a turn,off road,and once in gravel,but in those cases I can blame bike set up and an over zealous rider getting on the gas far too early.

My XLV750 had massive engine braking,and it took me a while to learn to cope with it.It would step out the rear on corner entry,like a motard,kinda fun,but messy.If I got the entry right,then it would push on the exit,I had to alter my riding to suit.First thing I did was get a stickier rear tyre so I could get my turn in right.Next was to get as far forward as I possibly could,I would actualy be on the tank itself,right on the nose of the seat. This is why dirt bikes have the seat going right up to the filler cap,they move that far forward in the turns.And that's one of the reasons I feel uncomfortable on a sportsbike - I just can't get far enough forward.

So,my theory for overcooking the corner and the bike ''pushing'' to the outside of the turn? - move forward as far as you can,get off the front brake and on the gas,just slightly,and maybe even a touch of rear brake.Remember Kenny Roberts - ''You'll never lose the front if you're on the gas'' - it's a big leap in faith,but he's a far better rider than me...and I know he's right.

[Ixion]

That seems contradictary? Power on will lighten the front end, which makes sense for not losing it, less weight on the front means the front tyre has less adhesion requirement. Yet moving forward will put more weight back on the front?

[Motu]

But if you moved back and weighted the rear the rear would go - you have to move foward.Check out a speedway rider,the throttle is on all the time,and with the classic ''Mauger'' style they have shifted so far forward to be practicaly on the steering head.

[digsaw]

Too hot in to a corner,umm most times its not too hot but that you have turned in far too soon and you have to pick it up an have another shot at it.
Sometimes a couple of quick taps on the front brake will stand it up enough to get you to the apex where a small amount of back brake application while still under power will pull the bike back down so the corner can be made.
A good idea is to pick a couple of corners on a quite road that you know well an practice entering the corners later,EG go in deeper,turn in later,an get the power on sooner and power all the way through the corners.

[Crisis management]

I have to agree with Motu about throttle on, it works for me, the front lifts as the chain bites on the rear sprocket (at least it feels like that) and if the rear steps out a bit at least the bike is "further" around the corner and when it stops sliding (which you control with the throttle) you can stand the bike up faster out of the corner.
I disagree about the more countersteering in the corner, yes it works but I have found more weight on the outside footpeg gives a faster response. Similarily, if you start to loose the front more weight on the inside peg will help. This is all about the centre of gravity of the bike and rider, changing how your weight is applied to the bike, not just hanging off, provides a rapid change in bike attitude and steering direction.
I have also found shifting weight fore & aft on the bike changes the rate of slide of either tyre. If the back steps out too far moving back adds weight to the rear and increases the grip (force equals friction coefficient times applies load...just for Ixion ). The opposite works for the front sliding. Note!!! I have only achieved that sort of control on the track with long corners when there is time to stuff about with such theories.

Disclaimer. If you fall off trying this it is not my fault. This seems to work for me and its only happened by reading the likes of Kenny Roberts, Keith Code etc and then trying it out.

Good luck

[ldnz]

I fully agree with 2 strokes and engine braking -theres none. On the KR I pretty much always have power on. I brake hard just before the corner, but as I start to lean I already have the slack taken up in the throttle and am slowly bringing it back on. Im not sure exactly what it is, might have to go thrash the manawatu gorge again and figure it out, but somehow pulling the throttle on has saved me much more than its ever caused me trouble.

[limbimtimwim]

Remember Kenny Roberts - ''You'll never lose the front if you're on the gas'' - it's a big leap in faith,but he's a far better rider than me...and I know he's right.

I think Kenny is right also. It 'feels' better with the throttle open just a little. Keeps everything nice and 'clean' in the engine too for when you see the exit

[aff-man]

Well I had a bit of trouble keeping the rear on the ground on my little ride to do errands today so I couldn't confirm the light rear brake application stuff. Sorry.

Can confirm... It's my last resort method if I really overcook it.... Generally try to "retip" the bike in basically get as tight a line as I possibly can and then if I have way to much speed on I do that tapping the back brake thing to tip her in more...

Don't know if it was fluke but the first time I did it it scared the bejezus out of me. I think I might have put on a little to much and the thing really tipped in... I made the corner but man it was a puckering moment for sure..

If it's not to bad I sometimes also slighty use the front (I know bad me) but it does work but usually only uphill because if the forks are already pretty loaded you gonna get some front end slide.

Good write up man. Catch ya out there.

[justsomeguy]

I usually end up messing it up a few times a ride or is it an hour

When I misjudge a vanishing point I pretty much target fixate on the point I want to be at and go through a series of hard braking - letting go and steering - hard braking moves.

Sometimes the front tyre goes into a proper wobble and the front starts shaking, but it seems that as long as I stay relaxed the bike looks after itself and I just need to do nothing after all it's just a little bike and can be muscled back - still rather scary....

Seems to have worked so far........ lets see how it goes

[justsomeguy]

''You'll never lose the front if you're on the gas'' - it's a big leap in faith,but he's a far better rider than me...and I know he's right.

Yeah, as the power is coming from the back and the weight distribution is also more stable.

Keith Code explains it a lot better.

I find being very hard on the rear brake helps the bike from nose diving slightly when I find I need to scrub off a little extra pace.