Death Penalty...

[scumdog]

But everyone thought the Thomas case WAS black and white. It took one of those low-life journalist types to get him freed.

Hell Lou, even i put him in the 'hmmmm??? bracket.

There are cases like Bailey down here where it's clear-cut. (raped a local girl then when he finished the deed he shot here in the head).
I'd have no worries about HIS guilt - or about shooting him.

[sels1]

I for one, .

"An eye for an eye and the world goes blind" Gandhi

[The_Dover]

Perhaps a form of public humiliation like the town stocks should be re-introduced? 5 days and nights locked in them with the public allowed to come along and throw rotten food at the offender???

5 nights locked in the stocks at Pt Erin car park, trousers around ankles.

They'd think twice then.

[Lou Girardin]

5 nights locked in the stocks at Pt Erin car park, trousers around ankles.

They'd think twice then.

Hell yeah, especially when you know who the neighbours are.

[ManDownUnder]

nice sentiment but fact is there are some people in our society that havent/never will evolve and therefore leave us no option other than to treat them as barbarians with barbarian methods that they will understand,

That would be very few people and you're right - they'll never evolve. They'e called psychopaths or possibly have some other mental illness and see nothing wrong with what they've done... if they did, they'd understand it was wrong - and thereby understand it should be put right (or at least that they want to avoid repeat punishment)

Whether they choose to or not is over to them - the outcome of that decision determines their fate - freedom, or not. The outcome, their future it literally in their hands - as it is in yours or mine.

None of the above gives anyone the right to have them put down like an animal. The only excuse for killing another person is war or the immediate defence of another person... and then it needs to be last (or most obvious) resort

[ManDownUnder]

Hell yeah, especially when you know who the neighbours are.

George Michael lives in Pt Erin???

[placidfemme]

Well, today I've re-read this thread from start to finish, and admitidly yesterday I got a bit hot under the collar in regards to the topic. Now that I've re-read it and had ample time to consider my thoughts...

I still think the death penatly should be re-introduced. However, only with "certain" cases. I obviously don't know the ins and outs of the law system, so I don't think I really have the information or place to decide which case should be given the death penatly or not. I just feel that some people cannot be released into society due to the crimes commited and VERY high chances of them re-commiting these crimes until stopped (death).

Althought some very good points have been brought up.

The most important I believe is that we are basically talking about "after-care". And not prevention. This generation is already screwed (Crime wise), the only real solution is to prevent the next generation from heading in the same direction. Which of course involves parents, schools, government and society as a whole.

The prison system also needs to change, and by the previous posts the most agreed on answer (other than death) is to set up work camps as such and get the crims to earn thier own food and board at the prisons.

Also the government needs to set tougher sentances when people are commited of these crimes (the same type of crimes some deem death is justifyable -sp ). And these prison terms need to have a long period of time (more than 3/4 of the total sentance IMO) before they can even consider applying for parol.

I also think the whole "points" system on criiminals is a good idea. Every so many points upon re-conviction stands for added time to the sentance (Example: Rape = 10 years, and said criminal has say 40 points already, every 10 points counts towards one extra year... so in effect said criminal is now serving a 14 year sentance elegable for parole only after 11 or 12 years).

Sorry if I offended anyone with my previous posts.

[Macktheknife]

Weeeelllllll...

How about a points system like with your license?

Crimes attract a certain number of demerit points and as your points go up you loose increasing 'benefits' of society? Get 500 points and you are no longer eligible for unemployment etc. Points get taken off for getting a job and staying in that job.

Maybe, the points can be used as a sentece multiplier? ie - Get done for a crime and you already have X points your setence gets multiplied by a certain % with that increased portion NOT eligible for parole. A jury need not be aware of the points accrued BUT repeat crimes would have consequences.

Ultimately, get enough points and .... pfft...

Cheers

Paul I reckon you could be on to something here, that sounds like a workable option. A little more complex than the 3 strikes rule but clearly communicates the impending penalty. I would vote for it.

[Paul in NZ]

Paul I reckon you could be on to something here, that sounds like a workable option. A little more complex than the 3 strikes rule but clearly communicates the impending penalty. I would vote for it.

I think a system like that could work? Not sure but if there were incentives to contribute to society like working, doing community service (charity work) making sure your kids were at school etc you could reduce your points faster or something?

I dunno - death need not be the final option but I like the idea of a penalty multiplier for consistent offending to get the really bad off the street faster and for longer.

I dunno - what do others think??

[Street Gerbil]

Paul I reckon you could be on to something here, that sounds like a workable option. A little more complex than the 3 strikes rule but clearly communicates the impending penalty. I would vote for it.

Actually they implemented it in Caliifornia already. Just before I left there was an article on the news about a guy who did his time twice and finally got an automatic life sentence due to 3rd strike rule after he forgot to pay for a $9 box of cola which he placed on the bottom shelf of the shopping trolley. Everyone agreed that if that case would have made it to court it would have been instantly dismissed.

[Beemer]

I think a system like that could work? Not sure but if there were incentives to contribute to society like working, doing community service (charity work) making sure your kids were at school, etc you could reduce your points faster or something?

I dunno - death need not be the final option but I like the idea of a penalty multiplier for consistent offending to get the really bad off the street faster and for longer.

I dunno - what do others think??

I think so too, and if they made the jury aware of how many points an offender had when they were picked up for the current crime (without going into detail of what the points were for), it would stop all this bullshit where a guy gets convicted of a crime like assault and once convicted you hear he's had multiple previous convictions for the same or worse offences.

I like the idea of work gangs too - give them a points system for that too - work a day in the kitchen and you get 20 points, do cleaning duty and you get 10 points, work a week in the prison gardens or factory and you earn 100 points, etc. Oh, and by the way, your meals are worth 50 points a week and your accommodation is worth 40 points and hot showers a further 20 points - you get the idea. And if you don't earn enough points in a week, you have cold showers, share a cell with heaps of others and not enough bedding, and you get the most basic food. That would soon instill a bit of a work ethic in them and maybe do them a good turn for when they get released.

[Hitcher]

A point that seems to be missing here is some discussion around personal responsibilities. The debate so far can largely be summarised as "It's all terrible. What are they going to do about it?"

"We don't like bad people. They should lock them up/they should kill them!"

The issues here are a bit like those aired in discussions about the tragedy that is the recent murders of the Kahui twins. We have lost our sense of community and our responsibilities to look out for each other.

We are prepared as a society to ignore criminal activities until such time as they either affect us personally or we are outraged at something we see reported. Sometimes outraged to the point where the hoary chestnut that is the death penalty debate gets taken out for a canter.

New Zealand will never have a death penalty. There is no political will for it from any quarter. And, as a country, we are signatory to international agreements on this. And bloody good too. We are not barbarians, nor should we behave as such.

And if the answer is more prisons and more police, than what is the fucking question?

[Phurrball]

I don't know if he's innocent or not...............but there is too much doubt for him to be found guilty. Motive springs to mind.

(snip)

Really? It wasn't a perfectly prosecuted case by any stretch of the imagination - hence the fact it's been bouncing around in our appellate jurisdictions for a while now...

Go here and read the 2003 decision and see how much doubt there is in your mind then. Only DB truly knows what happened...at some level. Whichever way you look at this case, a tragedy happened. All too close to home for my schoolmates and I. I'll never forget walking to school that day...

All this talk of points systems - sentencing ain't up to juries. All sounds rather like the pleas in mitigation and aggravation made by defence and prosecuting counsel respectively bringing in all the relevant extrinsic factors ("Abused as a child, tortured puppies, has done this before etc...") to weigh up and ramp-up, or reduce the sentence (if there's scope). This has allready been happening for many a year.

And to all those who think there need to be 'tougher' sentences -there's never been so much scope to hand out tough sentences as there is now - there have been some beauties handed out. Why do ya think NZ has such a ridiculously large prison population??

[Paul in NZ]

Well darn.... Ya know.. Just because a decision or a course of action is unpalletable does not always make it wrong.

But, as an apparent barbarian (yet without all the good stuff usually associated with the job) I guess we can say the debate has been well and truely harpooned and is now deader than a Kahui day care centre......

The 'they' is us - I know that only too well but when this community can't discuss an issue without polarising the issue and taking extreme stances there is not much point I suppose. (and I'm as bad as anyone else before we reach for our quoting stick) I never claimed to see the answers but I can see the problems. Perhaps I will be happier with darker sunglasses or maybe I should just give up on newspapers? It's none of my business any way how other people choose to live their lives.

Anyway. I'm having a bloody terrible night as it is and can't see any progress or even a sensible suggestion on how to make my concerns heard or think of a course of action so I'll piss off back to my hole... I give up.... Thank god for Helen and her clever followers, they will save us yet we hope...

All for one and one for one...

Perhaps a kind mod can take this thread and the one I started earlier and move it to PD

[Ixion]

A point that seems to be missing here is some discussion around personal responsibilities. The debate so far can largely be summarised as "It's all terrible. What are they going to do about it?"

"We don't like bad people. They should lock them up/they should kill them!"

The issues here are a bit like those aired in discussions about the tragedy that is the recent murders of the Kahui twins. We have lost our sense of community and our responsibilities to look out for each other.

We are prepared as a society to ignore criminal activities until such time as they either affect us personally or we are outraged at something we see reported. Sometimes outraged to the point where the hoary chestnut that is the death penalty debate gets taken out for a canter.

New Zealand will never have a death penalty. There is no political will for it from any quarter. And, as a country, we are signatory to international agreements on this. And bloody good too. We are not barbarians, nor should we behave as such.

And if the answer is more prisons and more police, than what is the fucking question?

Speak for yourself. I am certainly a barbarian, and glory in the name. Indeed, I am worse, I am working class. And we should indeed behave as barbarians. Remember, that it was the barbarians, with their barbarian virtues of self reliance, courage, integrity, oath keeping, personal accountability, democracy (the Germanic tribes were the true democrats), all those working class virtues which overthrew the effete, pansified, bourgois Roman Empire.

As for their being no political will for the death penalty, that is in fact to say there is no politicans will for it. Yet another example of the politicians ignoring the wishes of the people they purport to represent, for surveys repeatedly show that the public at large certainly have a will for it.

And I reject the attempt (a typical middle class one) to somehow shrug off the responsibility for horrendous acts from their perpetrators onto society at large. It is this middle class obsession with excusing the inexcusable that allows such monstrousness to flourish. Qui s'excuse, s'accuse.

The people responsible, and SOLELY responsible for the recent murders of the Kahui twins are the Kahuis and their hangers-on. Them and none other. Let not the weaselly evasion of the politically correct be allowed to conceal this fundamental point.

Barbarian? Aye, indeed that I am. Better barbarian than bourgois.

And the answer is not more prisons and police. It is a bullet. And yes, I would have no qualms whatsoever about personally pulling the trigger.