Police are planning...

[vifferman]

One more time for luck, hopefully it might start to sink in soon.

That sort of condescending tone is WHY people don't listen.

Crashes are caused by many factors. Speed is one of them, usually because it was innapropriate for the conditions.

Agreed. That is my point. It's attitudes I was talking about. If you drive at a speed inappropriate for the conditions, then you need an attitude adjustment.
"I'm a good driver".
"I'll never crash."
"Only idiots can't handle speed."
Or whatever.

However, speed is a major contributing factor to the trauma suffered as a result of a crash. Therefore I am afraid that speed does in fact kill. Especially when it is accompanied by stoppping extremeley quickly as is the case when vehicles colide.

That's not in dispute.
However, it doesn't mean "Speed will kill you" or "if you don't speed you will be safe" or "If you exceed the speed limit anywhere, at any time, regardless of the conditions and your skill, you will die".
Nor does it mean that "If you exceed the speed limit, you are a heinous cold-blooded murderer."

If you don't believe me get your old maths and physics books from highschool out and go figure it out for yourselves. Alternatively go out and join one of the emergency services, police, fire, ambo and see for yourselves what happens to people in road crashes.

I know what happens to people in road crashes. I've been on the receiving end of a few myself. I do know physics too - to year 2 university level, so you don't need to adopt a patronising tone with me.
I also have a vivid imagination, and remember what pain feels like.

My point is that the focus is wrong, and deals with the SYMPTOMS of the real problem, and very poorly at that. Not only is it NOT significantly improving people's attitudes, but it's also alienating those very people who need to BUY the whole concept of taking responsibility for the consequences of their bad attitudes.

The only real winners in this whole campaign are the ad agencies and the gummint's consolidated fund. And here's the acid test - ask anyone you meet in the street if they believe that the more tickets that are issued for exceeding an arbitrary, blanket speed limit, the safer the roads will be as a result. Do YOU believe that?

[sAsLEX]

very well said firestormer agree with you on all those points

[sAsLEX]

The americans had a problem with people not wearing seatbelts causing huge numbers of deaths when combined with the lack of safety glass back in the day, that is how airbags came about as they had some ammendment saying they didn't have to wear them.

How about we do it the American way and remove the lowest common denominator, the plonk behind the wheel, and automate all our highways so people can not avoid being safe!

[vifferman]

How about we do it the American way and remove the lowest common denominator, the plonk behind the wheel, and automate all our highways so people can not avoid being safe!

Actually, we have had the technology for a long time to enable motorways to be automated. Type in or select your destination, push "Go" and the autopilot takes over. Traffic would move faster, and there'd be no accidents. Fuel consumption would be lower (computer-controlled acceleration), there'd be no accidents, no gridlock, no worries.

It'd be exactly like it is now: people travelling bumper to bumper, able to do their makeup/shave/read the paper/eat breakfast while driving....

[vifferman]

very well said firestormer agree with you on all those points

Damn! (Sorry JC, Allah, Satan and Zed).
Must've written it badly then.

[spudchucka]

That sort of condescending tone is WHY people don't listen.

I'll make no apologoies as it was a stupid statement in the first place.

Agreed. That is my point. It's attitudes I was talking about. If you drive at a speed inappropriate for the conditions, then you need an attitude adjustment.
"I'm a good driver".
"I'll never crash."
"Only idiots can't handle speed."
Or whatever.

Agreed, attitudes are a big problem and in fact some of the worst attitudes I've ever dealt with came from people who were speeding inappropriately.

That's not in dispute.
However, it doesn't mean "Speed will kill you" or "if you don't speed you will be safe" or "If you exceed the speed limit anywhere, at any time, regardless of the conditions and your skill, you will die".
Nor does it mean that "If you exceed the speed limit, you are a heinous cold-blooded murderer."

Stepping out your front door is fraut with danger, getting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle just worsens the odds of getting killed or injured. You may never speed and be unlucky enough to be killed by someone who was speeding. No one is saying, "don't speed and you will be as safe as houses" or "if you speed you will die". Its about accepting the risks and every road user doing their best to minimise them. If that means slowing down a little then just do it for everyones sake.

I also have a vivid imagination, and remember what pain feels like.

Thats a good thing not to forget.

My point is that the focus is wrong, and deals with the SYMPTOMS of the real problem, and very poorly at that. Not only is it NOT significantly improving people's attitudes, but it's also alienating those very people who need to BUY the whole concept of taking responsibility for the consequences of their bad attitudes.

There are road rules for a reason. If they aren't enforced there would be constant chaos on our roads. Maybe the focus is wrong in the bigger picture but without traffic enforcement you would have to accept a lot more people getting killed, maybe some of your own family members. Surely the best place to foster good attitudes is in the family / home environment, after all our kids usually grow up to reflect our own attitudes and values. The police can't have that level of influence over people and if you want the govt to do it then isn't that some form of "social engineering", (getting back to the previous comments re Nazi Germany). People need to take responsibility for their own attitudes and not blame agencies like the police or CYF's for what they need to take ownership of themselves.

The only real winners in this whole campaign are the ad agencies and the gummint's consolidated fund. And here's the acid test - ask anyone you meet in the street if they believe that the more tickets that are issued for exceeding an arbitrary, blanket speed limit, the safer the roads will be as a result. Do YOU believe that?

What I believe is that police out on our roads enforcing the road rules and slowing people down does make the roads safer. I don't give a flying f**k how many tickets the police issue. If people are dumb enough to keep speeding and driving like idiots then they have nothing to moan about.

[modalx]

For those that are unaware of the late 1990s Montana state experience with "Reasonable and Prudent" speed laws as opposed to rigid numerical laws here is a link. http://www.motorists.org/pressreleases/montana.html

Basically the state had its lowest ever fatal accident rate 4 years into a no-fixed-speed-limit trial. A year after reintroducing speed limits (a politically correct decision because of federal pressure) they experienced a modern high in fatal accidents.

It is about the money but it is also about a deeply held belief that people will revert to anarchy if they are not controlled. This is a fascist position, more common in Western societies, where Judeo-Christian beliefs tell us all men are essentially evil. Because of this underlying misconception, our rulers feel it is their duty to protect us from ourselves.

When most leaders are faced with a problem like the road toll they feel forced to act. They will almost always rush to the most obvious solution based on the simplest analysis. When faced with a choice between an action that has only a slight chance of success and inaction, they will choose action every time. They will do this even when there is strong evidence that inaction would be the best course.

The stats used by LTSA to justify the current policy are simply invalid. Any first year statistics student could confirm that it is not possible to draw the conclusions they have from the data available.

The key fact is that the vast majority injury accidents occur below the posted limit. The same event would have occurred if the speed limit was 200kph or, dare I suggest, did not exist.

Our only hope is enlightened leadership - so there goes all hope.

[vifferman]

No one is saying, "don't speed and you will be as safe as houses" or "if you speed you will die".

Isn't "Speed Kills" effectively the same as "If you speed, you will die"? If not, then the inference is there (and very strongly), as is the inference that the speed toll would be magically fixed if no-one ever broke the speed limit.
I still maintain that the gummint are trying to fix a problem by addressing it in an over-simplistic way that tackles only one symptom, not the root cause.

Its about accepting the risks and every road user doing their best to minimise them. If that means slowing down a little then just do it for everyones sake.

That's a very sensible statement, Spud, and I agree.

There are road rules for a reason. If they aren't enforced there would be constant chaos on our roads.

Correct. I have no problem with the enforcement of road rules, and I am well aware that it is the responsibility/job of the police to do this. I do have a problem with enforcement being largely limited to one particular law that is easy to police and which also happens to be a good money-spinner. Not a criticism of the police, but the bureaucrats. For example, if road safety is the ultimate aim, and 90% of injury-causing accidents (or is just accidents? I'm afraid I don't know for sure) occur at intersections, why isn't more effort put into education and enforcement around the rules that govern intersections? I may occasionally break the speed limit, but I never run red lights, and always stop at stop signs. People who don't, make me
(I have a pet theory that red light runners would very quickly stop this dangerous habit if road spikes protruded from the road just past the line as soon as the light turned red...)

Maybe the focus is wrong in the bigger picture but without traffic enforcement you would have to accept a lot more people getting killed, maybe some of your own family members.

As I said, I have NO problem with traffic enforcement. It needs to be fair though, and perhaps more importantly (given this thread) SEEN to be fair.

Surely the best place to foster good attitudes is in the family / home environment, after all our kids usually grow up to reflect our own attitudes and values. The police can't have that level of influence over people and if you want the govt to do it then isn't that some form of "social engineering", (getting back to the previous comments re Nazi Germany). People need to take responsibility for their own attitudes and not blame agencies like the police or CYF's for what they need to take ownership of themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly.

What I believe is that police out on our roads enforcing the road rules and slowing people down does make the roads safer. I don't give a flying f**k how many tickets the police issue. If people are dumb enough to keep speeding and driving like idiots then they have nothing to moan about.

Yup, I totally agree, and it wasn't my intention to blame the police for the shortcomings in policy/action. I also take to heart your points about good attitudes being fostered in the home, and about minimising risks to yourself / your family / other road users.

[vifferman]

When most leaders are faced with a problem like the road toll they feel forced to act. They will almost always rush to the most obvious solution based on the simplest analysis. When faced with a choice between an action that has only a slight chance of success and inaction, they will choose action every time. They will do this even when there is strong evidence that inaction would be the best course.

The stats used by LTSA to justify the current policy are simply invalid. Any first year statistics student could confirm that it is not possible to draw the conclusions they have from the data available.

Our only hope is enlightened leadership - so there goes all hope.

Well said, Modalx. Uh.. how do you pronounce that?

[sAsLEX]

What annoys me is that the other day I see on the news a guy being put away for ten years after killing one of his mates, not for the first time, while drunk and yet he had previously caused death through this and had soo many convictions.

The media labelled him as New Zealands most dangerous person on the road. My question...why was he ever allowed back behind the wheel?? He was a repeat offender had practically murdered his mate previously but was allowed to do it again.

And, I may be wrong, but i still think he hasn't been permenantly barred from driving, maybe for a few years but people like this should never be able to operate a deadly weapon ever again!

[scumdog]

Of course its revenue gathering, if not why do they ping you for cash when doing a little over the speed limit, I got done for 114kp/h going down a hill a good conditions, they made me pay $80.00 and took 20 points, DID THEY HAVE TO TAKE CASH?? 20 points is plenty punishment enough for a slight road rule breach.its ALL about the money, If they were serious about speed being a MAJOR problem as they would have you believe they could do all soughts of things ie speed restrict cars that come into the country.
As long as there is money in it they will milk it for everything.
The highway patrol are scum they chose thier job cause they enjoy writing tickets like the power hungry control freaks they are, all reason is gone and its MONEY MONEY MONEY.I haven met a HP that hasnt got some mental issues going on yet
Having spent alot of time in highway patrol cars myself I think im fairly qualified to say.

Grow up, Just don't drive too fast and you'll be o.k., you must have a different brand of H.P. cops where you come from ( or you imagine too much), how would you like it if they said " we are going to get rid of fines, if you exceed the limit by more than 15 km an hour we will just take your wheels off you for 28 days instead" that way you would be saved the anguish of thinking it was only money grabbing eh?

[Quasievil]

Grow up, Just don't drive too fast and you'll be o.k., you must have a different brand of H.P. cops where you come from ( or you imagine too much), how would you like it if they said " we are going to get rid of fines, if you exceed the limit by more than 15 km an hour we will just take your wheels off you for 28 days instead" that way you would be saved the anguish of thinking it was only money grabbing eh?

yeah errrr okay ,, sure what ever you think, thanks for the input :spudwave:

[Quasievil]

Grow up, Just don't drive too fast and you'll be o.k., you must have a different brand of H.P. cops where you come from ( or you imagine too much), how would you like it if they said " we are going to get rid of fines, if you exceed the limit by more than 15 km an hour we will just take your wheels off you for 28 days instead" that way you would be saved the anguish of thinking it was only money grabbing eh?

Im picking that you are in the business of tax collecting as well, your attitude has already been expressed here by one of you colleuges

[madandy]

The Police are simply carrying out their duties as instructed by the wizards in Wellington.Its the f/wit politicians and other Buerocrats(sp.) who are to blame for misguided policy enforcement.

The only thing that will truly and happily reduce carnage on our roads is driver training.Making a car safer just increases the speed at which you can safely crash FFS.

Making improvemants to our roads is obviously sorely needed especially to reduce congestion but I've never had a loose moment and blamed the road for my mistake! (just some tar with blue chip spread on it not some homocidal surface)

[Quasievil]

The Police are simply carrying out their duties as instructed by the wizards in Wellington.Its the f/wit politicians and other Buerocrats(sp.) who are to blame for misguided policy enforcement.

The only thing that will truly and happily reduce carnage on our roads is driver training.Making a car safer just increases the speed at which you can safely crash FFS.

Making improvemants to our roads is obviously sorely needed especially to reduce congestion but I've never had a loose moment and blamed the road for my mistake! (just some tar with blue chip spread on it not some homocidal surface)

You started it you going down on Saturday ??