Mapp 90 Day Bill

[Ixion]

And the retaliation if he does get it passed is: Don't vote National next election. Even better cast a protest vote for ACT - they no longer appear to be quite as right wing as National.

Now why on earth would anyone who objects to workers being exploited want to vote for ACT? How silly. Vote Communist, the only party that makes sense.

As to this pernicious bill, if passed it will not be the lazy or incompetant who will be its victims - there are already perfectly adequate means for employers to rid themselves of those. It will be the worker who objects to being a target for sexual exploitation (male or female); the worker who has the temerity to object to unsafe working conditions; or work practices that are unsafe for the public or crooked or dishonest; the worker who naively expects the pay or conditions promised at the interview to actually be attainable;the worker who expects the initial "training period" at less than minimum wages (or no wages at all) to be followed by the promised employemnt at decent rates; the worker who objects to "tommy shop" demands; the worker who expects statutory holidays; the worker in short who expects a fair deal.

As for the oft heard claims that lazy or incompetant workers cannot at present be dismissed, I can only say "Utter nonsense". I have been (and am) an employee; in my time a union delegate ; an employer; self employeed and a manager who has hired many scores of workers, and sacked quite a few too; so I have seen all sides of the coin.

There is a procedure that must be followed. Follow it , and the process is simple. But, it does require proper management by the managers.

For those who complain that "people do not want to work". Well, have they completed their agreed work load? Do they even know what the duties are? Have you actually agreed with them what you expect of them ? If you have and they are not doing it, then the process of warning and dismissal is straightforward and not hard to invoke. All that is required is basic fairness.

And if they have completed their duties , well, what is your grumble? If the tasks were insufficently onerous, then that is surely your fault as manager, for not setting higher expectations and standards. If they were high, and the worker has worked hard and finished them, then you should give him or her a pat on the back instead of complaining.

[Virago]

I've just taken on a new employee, and have put a 90 day probation clause in his employment agreement, in accordance with current legislation.

Under this system, I am protected from having to keep a no-hoper on my team, provided I follow due process. This means keeping the employee informed of his progress during the probation, and giving him every chance to improve if required. If he doesn't meet the grade, I can let him go.

There is nothing wrong with the current legislation, it can work well for both sides.

[oldrider]

I am against the 90 day bill. When I worked in both the Hospotality and Reatil industry there were sometimes clauses in the contract that gave xxx amount of day's as being a trial period and you would be let go if they didnt want you. Unfortunately I often saw this abused because of a simple minor personality clash, or in one case where I worked a few years ago a new employee slept with the bosses son and regretted it so she called things off. The boss fired her cause his son didnt want her there. He didnt tell her this but he told me, I felt really bad for her as she had recently become a single mother and had left her abusive partner, she was just trying to support herself.I know that she had made a mistake but everyone makes mistakes, I dont think that anyone should be punished to that extent. Im sure there would be a dozen or more other situations that could be abused because of this bill. But as Hitcher say's, it hasn't gone to Select Comittee yet. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't.

No legislation on earth could help a workplace that has the problems above and that is not what this legislation is about either.
Employment is about work place "relationships" the above is not a relationship, it is a disaster waiting to be exposed and the sooner the better. John.

[Pathos]

I have heard some horror stories about employees taking reasonable employers too the employment court and lefty policies entitled the employee too thousands. Those thousands come straight out of the employers pocket so employment abuse works both ways.

I have no real problem with the legislation as long as it works both ways (employee can ditch the company with out notice within those 90 days without penalty) and the employee is fully informed of the 90 day probation.

[James Deuce]

I have heard some horror stories about employees taking reasonable employers too the employment court and lefty policies entitled the employee too thousands. Those thousands come straight out of the employers pocket so employment abuse works both ways.
.

The Employers lost because they didn't follow a very simple process. It happens probably once every 3 months where I work, primarily because we have 1500 employees in NZ and no HR department to help Managers through the process of ditching a staff member. As Ixion mentioned it isn't hard to sack someone, but get the process wrong and the Company will pay for it.

Verbal, written, written, Bye Bye. It can take three days as a minimum if the employee is a total dickhead.

[The Pastor]

I have heard some horror stories about employees taking reasonable employers too the employment court and lefty policies entitled the employee too thousands. Those thousands come straight out of the employers pocket so employment abuse works both ways.

I have no real problem with the legislation as long as it works both ways (employee can ditch the company with out notice within those 90 days without penalty) and the employee is fully informed of the 90 day probation.

I agree, employers need more power. It is VERY frustrating when a company employs a twat who they cant fire for a long time, and when they finally get enough EVIDENCE to fire them, and they do so they get landed in court! Its nuts.

Im not 100% sure but i think in the states, you can get fired just because you dont fit in or somthing - NZ needs to take a lesson.

But its way to late for nz. We as a country have chosen to go down the labour path (not saying natioal is the defult other path) where nothing is anybodys fault and that the minorty have all the rights (except when it comes to motorbikes and other noisey stuff). Theres nothing you can do, its ingrained into our way of life. The individual is smart, the group of people are stupid and blindly follow the leader.

[Str8 Jacket]

No legislation on earth could help a workplace that has the problems above and that is not what this legislation is about either.
Employment is about work place "relationships" the above is not a relationship, it is a disaster waiting to be exposed and the sooner the better. John.

Not really the point though is it. Everyone deserves a fair go. If you dont believe that then I sincerely hope that you fuck up one day and pay for it in a severe way. Sorry if this sounds harsh but its the reality, I do not believe that it is fair but I respect that you have your opinions too and thats cool. Lets just leave it at that.

[James Deuce]

I agree, employers need more power. It is VERY frustrating when a company employs a twat who they cant fire for a long time, ...

How is three days a long time?

[Str8 Jacket]

How is three days a long time?

If you were a dole bludger, maybe?

[Winston001]

I've just taken on a new employee, and have put a 90 day probation clause in his employment agreement, in accordance with current legislation.

Under this system, I am protected from having to keep a no-hoper on my team, provided I follow due process. This means keeping the employee informed of his progress during the probation, and giving him every chance to improve if required. If he doesn't meet the grade, I can let him go.

There is nothing wrong with the current legislation, it can work well for both sides.

Interesting. The only problem is that at the end of the 90 days you can't say "Sorry but it didn't work out". You have to go through the fair procedures malarky as if your probationary employee was permanent staff. That's what Mapp's bill is trying to cure.

[Motu]

Bring back the good old days when you could tell the boss to stick his fucking job and walk out,pick up your pay the next day.And when the boss could tell you to piss off you useless cunt - been on both sides there...and employer and employee.What's wrong with telling someone they are totaly useless and should work somewhere else,but not here.....what's wrong with telling the boss he's a prick and leaving - it's communication isn't it.PC crap.

[James Deuce]

It really is easy to fire someone. If they clearly breach the terms of their contract, they get a verbal warning, a written, a written, and then they're gone. When I started where I work, the guy I replaced was fired over the course of a week for openly viewing objectionable porn during owrk hours, and emailing it around trhe place. He ignored his warnings and got a big shock when they escorted him out.

Another one of our "stars" at a work Christmas Do grabbed a very attractive Customer by the left breast and proceeded to jiggle. He was most perturbed to find his stuff outside the next morning. Being drunk was no excuse.

I repeat, it isn't hard to fire someone in NZ if you understand employment law and how that applies to an individual's contract.

[Str8 Jacket]

I reckon thats totally fair enough, but I think someone should be given a warning first and have xxx amount of days to sort their shit out. Only one chance though. I dont think a hell of alot of people have very good work ethics anymore... all the PC crap doesnt help either.

[Virago]

Interesting. The only problem is that at the end of the 90 days you can't say "Sorry but it didn't work out". You have to go through the fair procedures malarky as if your probationary employee was permanent staff. That's what Mapp's bill is trying to cure.

So what it wrong with following fair procedure? Which part is too hard, being fair, or following simple procedure?

[WINJA]

wayne mapp sounds like he owns some sorta business where he only needs people for 90 days of the year , i hope this shit dont get thru cause it wont be good for the average worker and i have a distrust of all busniesses big or small cause in my experience if theres a law theyll exploit it , i hope wayne mapp gets hit by a car and becomes a paraplegic i wish all the worst on him and his family , i hate the selfserving mother fucker