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Thread: Why is not road safety treated the same way as aviation safety ?

  1. #31
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    James Reason considers the aviation industry as a complex productive system. He represents it by a "layers" model. The upper layer is represented by the so called "Decision Makers" (upper management, a company's corporate body, the regulatory body). A second key element is "Line Management" (those who implement the decisions made by upper management). For upper-management decisions and line management actions, resulting in effective and productive activities by the operational personnel involved, certain preconditions have to exist (for example, equipment must be available and reliable, the operational personnel have to be skilled, knowledgeable and motivated, and environmental conditions have to be safe). “productive activities result from direct action of the operational personnel, and from indirect action of the upper layers too. The final element is "Defences" or safeguards (usually in place to prevent foreseeable injury, damage or costly interruptions of service). Due to technological progress and excellent defences, accidents are seldom originated exclusively by the errors of operational personnel - frontline operators - or as a result of major equipment failures. Instead, they result from the interactions of a series of failures, or flaws, already present in the system. Many of these failures are not immediately visible, and they have delayed consequences.
    Failures can be of two types, depending on the immediacy of their consequences. Active (an error or a violation which has an immediate adverse effect. Such errors are usually made by the front-line operator) and latent (a result of a decision or an action made well before an accident, the consequences of which may lie dormant for a long time. Such failures usually originate at the decision-maker, regulator or line management level, that is, with people far removed in time and space from the event).
    Latent failures, which originate from questionable decisions or incorrect actions, although not harmful if they occur in isolation, can interact to create a "window of opportunity" for a pilot, air traffic controller, or vehicle driver to commit an active failure. The front-line operators are the inheritors of a system's defects. They are the ones dealing with a situation in which technical problems, adverse conditions or their own actions will reveal the latent failures present in a system. Where front-line operators have the possibility to close their window (or defences work) the result is an incident; when they do not, it is an accident. Every attempt must be made to close
    those "windows of opportunity" at upper layers, in order to provide front line operators with the safest operational conditions. What is meant by that in most cases, the accident doesn't happen because operational personnel make a mistake; it happens because someone else is aware of the hazard, does nothing and remains sitting, waiting for the mistake to be made.
    Here is a plug for the Rozzers. They equate to the line managers and it is their responsibility, as one of the layers, to feedback any latent failure or windows of opportunityin our roading system that they observe above or below them. We, the front line operators also have the same responsibility. In general I feel that aviation has its heart in the right place when it comes to safety and could not be accused of revenue collecting.
    Here is not such a plug for Rozzers. The very public case of the Dash 8 that crashed at Palmerston North killing 4 people resulted in the police laying a manslaughter charge on the Captain, who in this rareish case survived. The end result revealed that the Bobbies at Palmerston North, with their need to throw someone in the slammer above finding our what really happened, lost. They looked a bit stupid for bringing a culture of blame into an Industry that had a far more advanced attitude towards accident investigation. Though I suspect the CAA's benign silence in this matter was in agreeance for a cheap and easy way out leaving ALPA to foot the million dollar bill.
    Whilst I may blow a bit of sunshine up aviations arse, I have been working in the industry as a pilot since 1977 and have also seen the ravages of money and the oldboys network at play on our regulators. One only needs cast back to the Mt Erebus accident investigation that ended up being heavily influenced by the muldoon government of the time. As a result the real truth, even after being contested many times, was never fully revealed and the report to this day remains flawed.
    Last edited by terbang; 31st July 2006 at 13:09.
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  2. #32
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    How about the police prosecution in the Palmerston North air crash?
    Blame someone, prosecute someone - it almost leaked over into Civil Aviation in NZ!
    I also know of several air crashes which were NOT reported at the time - if ever.....including the Mooney into Te Arai lake many years ago.....

    edit - oops - should have read the last post!
    “- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

  3. #33
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    It would be cool if they did treat car crashes like air crashes. You'd get your car put back together for free.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn
    It would be cool if they did treat car crashes like air crashes. You'd get your car put back together for free.
    Of course if you're dead it might take the edge off having your car fixed up for free......
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog
    Of course if you're dead it might take the edge off having your car fixed up for free......
    Just as long as your tray table was up and your seat was in the upright postion, you should be fine... unless you were hit by a plane.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by candor
    Gooooood post. They are now deleting - everyone be aware. Today I find my slightly sarcy post questioning if the speed poll relate to over limit or excess for conditions (as after a 9mill advert campaign am not sure yet what sped means) has disappeared. So they are in defense mode. New need for subtlety damnit. So take care posting - be safeas or we won't "see ya there! "
    This farcical deletion of public contributions to a forum is beginning to piss me off .
    time for an email to my MP

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by marty
    an unexplained violent death scene (such as an MVA or gunshot) can easily take half a day to measure and record.
    In NZ
    In Germany,however,the entire site investigation for a MVA is completed in less than 40 minutes.With minimal disruption to traffic

  8. #38
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    is that from personal experience, or do you actually have something to back that up? is that for a fender bender or a fatal? single car/multiple car? single death/multiple death?

    some substance to your claim is warranted.

  9. #39
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    here's my reason why i am suspicious as to the 40 minute claim:

    http://international.fhwa.dot.gov/Pd...r2.htm#germany

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamytus50
    All treating it as a potential homidice means is doing a thorough investigation using their gps mapping computer system and number crunching. If one of my loved ones died even if it was a one car crash i would still want to know what caused it(driver,vehicle or road factors), even if i didnt like the answer.

    What would TAIC do that is different to the Serious Crash Unit?
    I'm not advoating the TAIC would do anything different than the SCU. I 'm not an expert in this area. Whether the TAIC independance is considered an advantage over the SCU is the 'debatable point that I raise. I hold the view that it is. On the other side of the fence one could postulate that police could investigate air, rail, or maritime but that would be silly as the police do not have the experiance to do this. They do however prosecute. Now on this theme it could be argued the the SCU having roadside experiance through traffic enforcement, etc are the best people to investigate road crashes. But the Police are not part of the Ministry of Transport. They enforce the Ministry's policies. And it is on this basis that I believe that TAIC which is part of the MOT are better placed for this work as independants.

    The traditional role of the Police is criminal investigation and prosecution. These are crimes that can be tried by a jury. This role in respect to the HP has been subverted to the enforcement Ministy of Transport policies that are not criminal and in the case of the Instant Loss of Licence are now judge jury and executioner. It is one of the fatal flaws in our society as many now view the police as the bad guys i.e. who now realy belives what they say in respect to quota's?? Just one example of mistrust.

    Bit longer than intended..............but all gist for the mill.




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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamytus50
    All treating it as a potential homidice means is doing a thorough investigation using their gps mapping computer system and number crunching. If one of my loved ones died even if it was a one car crash i would still want to know what caused it(driver,vehicle or road factors), even if i didnt like the answer.

    What would TAIC do that is different to the Serious Crash Unit?
    Unfortunately, your curiosity shouldn't out weigh the inconvienience of closing, say, the main exit to Auckland city for 5 hours.
    Other countries can carry out a scene examination in much less time. 20 mins is what's allowed on autobahns for example.
    Speed doesn't kill people.
    Stupidity kills people.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Girardin
    Unfortunately, your curiosity shouldn't out weigh the inconvienience of closing, say, the main exit to Auckland city for 5 hours.
    Just one of the 'perks' of living in Auckland no doubt?
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
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  13. #43
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    No, just a bitch fight between two Police scene measurement teams.
    Speed doesn't kill people.
    Stupidity kills people.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Girardin
    No, just a bitch fight between two Police scene measurement teams.
    It would only happen in Auckland









    Not enough guys here to have TWO teams.
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
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  15. #45
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    Determining crash speed?

    As a slight aside, how do crash teams conclude the cars speed before impact? It used to be tape measures and skid marks, but now that cars have ABS how do they guess?

    If a skid mark is only 10m long before the car hit a tree how can you tell the speed from this?

    And how accurate is all this?

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