Hamilton Safe As - 27-07-2006

[beyond]

I personally get really pissed off with the powers that be, trying to screw everyones life up by deciding what is best for us. I crawled out of my nappies when I was around 2 and don't need some arse wiping, sniffling beaurocrat telling the people that we should wrap up in cotton wool and never go outside in case we get hurt.

Democracy is a by word in this day and age. When a bunch of parasites can suck us dry on taxes and then tell us what to do cos they thinks it's best for us, when they are a small minority, contributing nothing to the economy, sucks big time.

Then they pass laws discreetly as they can, that affect us all, that are stupid, not worth the paper they are written on and then proceed to tax us even more when those dum laws are broken in anyway.

Next year we will need a licence to wipe our own arses, will have to replace every engine over 125cc with a muted lawnmower engine and then of course the road statistics will drop to zero and we can all live happliy ever after, sucking our pacifiers.

I'll shut up now.

[The Stranger:Me]

I came away from it quite positive.

I feel it was a Shame there were few young people (under 20) to defend themselves though, and if they were serious about involving the community they have a big flaw right there.

Obviously the meeting was stacked, but the bikers out numbered the police(6) and every other group perhaps we were the least organised, due to time constraints, but we certainly got the chance to have our say.

Would have loved to have been seated at the Police table, could have had some great arguments there.

I really feel that you guys (KB) should attend in your area if at all possible, I see no downside. Suggestions are put forward on a table by table basis. Plant 2 bikers on each table and dig in if you don't agree.

A challenge to Norflanders - Come on you guys we had 10 there, you guys have more time to organise you got to beat that.

[Ixion]

Yes, it really is important that you young guys, and chicks, get into it. You're being lined up for a king hit, and you need to make your views heard.

[The Stranger:Me]

Yes, it really is important that you young guys, and chicks, get into it. You're being lined up for a king hit, and you need to make your views heard.

Yes the young are about to be sacrificed in the name of the road toll.

Better you than me, but hey you may want to do something about it.

[Ixion]

Oh, and in this context young means under 25

[The Pastor]

I think i'll try and get to the whagas meeting, Just got to sort out gas money...


Good effort to all who went to the hammyhole meeting. I agree with Ixion on it just being an attempt to say "everyone likes that idea" and that your ideas will fall on deaf ears.

What we need is a Kiwibiker party in parlament! Renegade master for PM! haha

[Ozzie]

Having slept on it, I think I am quite positive about the whole thing.

We did some ranting, and some raving, and were noticed, and question time got cut short because the questions Ixion, Crashe, myself and a select few others were too hard and destracted from the points that they (the organisers) made.

I think we should continue to attend these workshops, it makes no harm, and demonstrates at the very least that we are interested parties, we demand to be taken seriously, and that we are taking a mature step towards contributing rather than just rubishing their plans.

The main point I would like to make is this; Research and make an organised and coherant impact on the workshop. We were limited by time, the rest of you are not.

The questions they asked for comment on are the same as on the site, speed, drink and young people. These cannot be avoided due to the staged nature of the event, however there is an "or anything else" component, which needs to be maximised.

Each group has a speaker that stands up and states the main points, make sure the speaker is one of us, and the main point is NOT in the 3 topics they suggest, but rather in the "Anything Else Group".

To assist, those willing to go to the other events, go to the website, download the booklet and actually read it. There is plenty of ammo in there to use their own info to highlight the fact they are not focussed on the real issue. For example, yes young people are over represented in the statistics, however, it is not the young responsible law abiding types. In speed related deaths, and drink related deaths, the bigest demographics represented is Disqualified drivers / never licenced drivers (and restricted drivers, sorry CaN). The emphasis needs to be on ensuring those who should not be on the road are in fact not on the road, this would more than halve the toll.

Any initiative that involves increased use of demerits over financial penalty or criminal charges is categorically flawed, reason, most of the people dieing and killing us don't have a freakin license, so what difference is demerits going to make?

With my group, I found the best way to railroad their views was to agree with some of them, encourage, and ensure my point was made, and they endorsed it.

Anyway, good luck to those who wish to attend. All those that wish for this not to be the end, lets all join hands, perhaps join and assist BRONZ to get it right, quit contradicting and work together in an organised fashion.

CaN, can you please email me joining info for BRONZ, I will PM my email address.



Thoughts?

[Ixion]

A comment on the future process.

Once this round of "consultation" is over, the Ministry will put their heads together and decide what they politically get away with -ie how far they can go before stirring up an unacceptable level of public opposition.Based on much noise their "suggestions" have generated at this stage Which is why we need to impess on them that the ideas we oppose WILL generate much public opposition.Technically, this is "pre policy" consultation - they're sounding out public opinion BEFORE putting policy proposals forward .


Then, they will go into ANOTHER round of public consultation on the actual policies ,( which are based on the above assessment of what they can get away with). THAT round is when we want to present reasoned argument and debate.

At this stage the important thing to do is to make a BIG noise.

Incidentally GET WRITING TO THE MINISTER. Bypass the whole process and go striaght to the top.

[Mental Trousers]

It was worth attending just to hear some of what they were thinking. We had Dave Cliff, top traffic cop in the country at our table and the impression he got that we don't all rant and rave!!! The ranting is definitely a good thing, don't get me wrong. It shows we're passionate and that they can't hide these meetings.

These are the points that people should be pushing hard

• they are still stuck on speed rather than trying to minimize ALL of the factors that contribute to accidents
• fuck reducing the open road speed. No way, no how.
• they were very keen on alternatives to fines, ie demerits. This is good (disagree with Ozzie here as unlicensed etc are a seperate issue)
• getting drivers that shouldn't be out there off the road. A big one
• stats show increasing skill levels (in cars it's the opposite on bikes) doesn't not significantly reduce the road toll whereas changing attitudes does
• a merit points system, not just demerits
• change the idea that a drivers licence is a right, not a privilege

The workshop itself pretty much was bollocks though. I don't see how individual workshops are going to influence anything, but hammering those points and others at certain key people *may* influence their thinking if the same things keep recurring. Whether they'll actually do anything about it is a different matter. Despite that, I actually felt it was fairly positive mainly cos of what I was hearing from Dave Cliff.

I missed the end but it sounds like it got shut down when they were continually attacked about no notice about the workshops, what are the workshops meant to be achieving etc. So they are pretty sensitive about these things. But remember, getting a meeting shut down doesn't actually achieve anything.


Noel raised a good point. Get the young ones along cos they're really being lined up for a shafting. The only one I saw under about 25 was Christine. A couple of others turned up late, probably too late to have any input though.

[John Banks]

They don't actually want any ideas (I know they talk about that, but it's just window dressing). Or at any rate, only want ideas that agree with their preset agenda. So I'm afraid there is no hope of getting anything "done" (unless it is something that the Police and the bureacrats are already in favour of - power restrictions on cages might have a chance) . But what we may hope for is getting things "stopped".

EDIT:.It is still good to put ideas to them, though. Becuase that prevents them being able to claim that we are just disruptive. But don't expect anything to happen with them.

I don't expect too much to come from it in the area of policy, but they may "throw us a bone": Get rid of the 70kph learner limit, something small so that they can say "Look, we listened - we did *insert bugger all thing here*". Plus it's a lot easier to ignore ten or so loonies ranting and raving at one meeting than it is to ignore a thousand or so loonies sending the same message over and over.

[The Pastor]

• a merit points system, not just demerits
  

Please explain this a little bit more.

[Mental Trousers]

Earn merit points by doing training courses or some such. Get enough you get a cheaper registration fee or something similar. Get a ticket, you lose that and go back to paying the full fee again.

Ixion said it should be used to offset demerit points, but that aint gonna happen. Collect enough points so you can get off a ticket for doing 200kph ....... won't happen.

[Ozzie]

Earn merit points by doing training courses or some such. Get enough you get a cheaper registration fee or something similar. Get a ticket, you lose that and go back to paying the full fee again.

Ixion said it should be used to offset demerit points, but that aint gonna happen. Collect enough points so you can get off a ticket for doing 200kph ....... won't happen.

I agree, good offsetting bad, won't happen, but, in NSW they have a gold license. If you don't get a traffic infringement for 5 years, you get a gold license, it lasts 10 years (or until you get booked) and is half the price of a normal license. Licenses are more expensive over there, perhaps it could work on rego here, like a discount on ACC premium.

[The Stranger:Me]

I agree, good offsetting bad, won't happen

Push it though.
The best way to educate is reward and punishment, the next is reward only the the least effective is punisment alone.

Now what do we do, use punishment alone.
Add in a reward system and you take it from least effective to most effective.

Push for the merit points to offset demerit points, hell make them tradable and give them some real value. You could acrue merit points also by having a clean license, say you get 2 points a year for each year you are clean.

[Ozzie]

Isn't that how it works now?

A demerit falls off after a certain amount of time?

I think the biggest problem with "Good" points being used to offset bad, then what, you give way to a cop 5 times, puts you in credit so you can get off a speeding fine, drunk driving, or killing someone?

I agree in principal, but don't like the idea of the two being connected.

My opinion, will stop now.