PC Software Legitimacy Poll

[The_Dover]

First, lots of things are over priced, that doesn't mean it's ok to steal them. Can afford that HSV? Do you know how much they make them for?!! It's ok, steal one if you can't afford it.


Seriously though, I'm interested in what you mean about understanding open source software to be able to use it? (No, I'm not being sarcastic, it's a serious question). I've never used open-source, and to be honest don't know / understand anything about it other than downloading it and installing it to use. That's probably because I've never thought about it though.

Sure an HSV is expensive, but is it the only well known and easily available option out there? Crap comparison mate.

We're sitting here as fairly knowledgable and competent users of PC's, hell a lot of the geeks on here do that sort of shit for a living, but how many "normal" people would have a clue where to start installing an alternative operating system to Microshafts offering? Hell, it's only recently that Linux has become a viable alternative and even then, as someone who enjoys fucking around with computers, I'm not sure it's going to be a single OS going on my PC. It's not all pointy clicky "ooh, that worked" and that is what most people want and need.

If you had the option to "steal" or "borrow", whatever you want to call it, a decent car that worked most of the time and got you from A to B with no repercussions or get a free POS that you needed to do roadside repairs on regularly and even put back together before using it then which would you choose? Bearing in mind you have never so much as held a spanner in your life and don't know the difference between Mobil 1 and cooking oil?

See my point yet?

[Indiana_Jones]

I have one or two 'discounted' games, but otherwise it's all legit.

-Indy

[kickingzebra]

No, not talking about you specifically, the you is generic to people taking that standpoint.

I can understand software piracy to a point, but I had to look at my ethics, and what I want to teach my kids, and I don't want them to grow up thinking the world owes them something, however that is the attitude that software piracy encourages.

How on earth can Bill Gates, who has never met any of us, nor had any personal dealings with us, have wronged us so badly that he owes us?

[The_Dover]

Who said he owes us?

But what do Telecom or any other utility supplier owe us? Would you be happy paying $350 a month line rental to Telecom just because there is no other option?

Or should poor peoples kids not have access to computer facilities at home because their folks can't afford an extra $300 bucks for the OS and don't know how to configure an alternative?

If you believe that MS are anything more than a bunch of very clever rip off merchants then you're deluded.

[sAsLEX]

Ubuntu linux involves you putting in a cd and following the designed for "americans" prompts

ie its piss easy these days!

I did have older versions of linux and they were rather involved to install but not the new ones.

[sAsLEX]

I don't want them to grow up thinking the world owes them something

dont let befriend some maoris then!

[The_Dover]

I've ordered the CD today and will give it a bash.

I loved running Suse 9.1 on my machine but when I fucked something up, it was fucked up and trying to get 3d acceleration to work was just too much like hard yakka. I spent days on it.

Not to mention when I was using a USB speedtouch modem and needed to run a script that took 10 mins everytime I connected.

There have always been other options and I pray to god that this time ubuntu lives up to expectations.

[sAsLEX]

for the inherently lazy https://shipit.ubuntu.com/

[Drunken Monkey]

...From the poll (which is relatively indicative of general society, if not slightly more towards the piracy side), 79.8% of people think it's ok to steal stuff they don't want to pay for (or can't).... At least be ashamed, or admit it's wrong..

Ok, it's wrong. But it doesn't stop me.

... Just because a company is super successful, doesn't automatically make it ok to steal their products...

No, but if a company that is super successful keeps whingeing that piracy is effecting it's bottom line, they can get bent. It's just as bad in the music industry, but we've already had that thread - the short answer is I have no sympathy for whiners who rake in some of the largest net profits of any companies world wide.

...It's especially relevant with regards to smaller companies like Winzip,

DEFINATELY pirate winzip. PKWARE, the code/algorithm for .zip archives is freeware. When paying for winzip, you're only paying some schmuck who wrote a crappy front end in visual basic. WTF, XP and most Linux OSs can archive and unarchive anyway, you don't need winzip.

... Nero even, etc...

Good software I pay for. I still need access to pirate softwate though, because I'm a firm beleiver in try before you buy. You wouldn't buy your HSV without test driving it now, would you? (BTW a car is a shitty example; it's expensive, even sometimes a little overpriced, but not heinously overpriced. Most manufacturers couldn't turn a decent profit on new car sales alone)

...For those that honestly think it's ok to steal software (not you specifically DM), why do you think that? I mean what are the actual reasons?
* Because you don't want to spend the money?
* Because you don't like certain companies?
* Because everyone does it?
* Because you think you shouldn't have to pay for something you can get free?

...Do you honestly think you can justify that because of any of those reasons above, or any other like them?

Yes. I sleep well at night, even with those caveats.

...I'm not saying people who pirate software are shitty scum, far from it. People who can't afford things that they really need (lets face it, PC's are essential nowadays), do whatever they have to, to get them...

Why not? If people nick other people's private items, e.g. cars, home theatre systems, motorcycles, I'd label them as shitty scum. If you beleive software pirates are no better, you've just set your own double standard. Personally I do it as a protest, and even now, technically, although some of the actual versions of MS product I've installed are copies, I could just as easily whack in one of my technet ones - it's just more convenient and practical to use other versions.

...At least admit that your a software thief.

I think, therefore I am. No, I think a few of us have made our point. We really only pirate MS software. It's not strictly true, but I do have a messy pile of genuine software boxes in the corner of my office for some reason.

I thought software piracy was still a diminishing trade (based purely on unfounded personal opinion, please correct me if I'm wrong). It seems to be more rife with old skool users, it was pretty normal to copy EVERYTHING back in the day, irrespective of price.

I hope that gives you further insight. I think the_dover has said anything else I needed to say.

[Drunken Monkey]

I lied, I had one more thing:

...Don't use the fucken software if it's so bloody shit... Don't justify (to yourself) that it's ok to steal, and then use the bloody software you are bitching about? ...

Get "fucken" real (excuse my french, but you don't need to get carried away). Commercial users don't have a real choice. You can't just decide one day "oh I don't like Windows", click 'uninstall', walk down the road to the corner dairy, pickup a freeware Linux, walk back to the office, click 'install', then be back on your way to where you left off 20 minutes later. Computers don't work like that.

MS really do have a lot of businesses by the proverbial balls. It takes a lot of investment to move to alternatives, even if the software is 'free', there are significant costs in retraining (you're kidding yourself if you think most end users can cope with a change to open source equivalents without any training), sometimes hardware changes (compatibility problems are still ever present) and mostly, TIME. IT Expertise is expensive. It takes a lot of time to fix the niggles. Sure, some propellerhead can sort out all his USB and tape drive issues on his PC in 40 minutes, but put him in front of 40 blade servers and a 3000 user site with 4 branches on a WAN and he'll be in over his head.


PS - KickingZebra has listed some good alternatives there. As for 'seamless' transition, unfortunately only to at least semi-technical savvy people. There are a lot of users out there who can't even cope with the slight differences between Office 2000, XP and 2003, I shit you not. Let alone OS differences...

[Ixion]

...
DEFINATELY pirate winzip. PKWARE, the code/algorithm for .zip archives is freeware. When paying for winzip, you're only paying some schmuck who wrote a crappy front end in visual basic. WTF, XP and most Linux OSs can archive and unarchive anyway, you don't need winzip.

...

This is one reason why I have few moral compunctions about "piracy". The rabid way in which so many of the commercial software houses grab hold of something that is in the public domain, make a few trivial changes to it and then try to claim that the whole thing is propriatory intellectual property. Like Winzip, whiuch as you say is just a front end .

The most blatent practioners of such software hijacking ? You guessed it. Microsoft. And I will always applaud anyone shafting Microsoft after the way the took the TCP/IP stack and BIND code from Berkley, plugged it into Windows AND THEN TRIED TO CLAIM THAT THEY OWNED DNS and TCP/IP.

Theiving bastiges, if everybody on the whole planet ripped them off they'd only be getting a bit of their own treatment back at them.

But there are some software houses I would never pirate, and would report anyone who did. Borland used to be a good example, they trusted their user base, and played fair. So I've always played fair by them. Shareware ditto. If the "shareware" version is crippled so that it's practically useless, I'll crack it without a qualm. If the shareware version is decent, and the product useful, I'll pay for it.

[Lias]

I own maybe 0.1% of the software I've used.

If a product is such that I cannot use it without paying (IE online subscription based games, ala Everquest, Eve Online etc) I will pay for it.

If I extensively use a piece of software be it game or application, and its pricing is reasonable I will buy it eventually.

I never ever buy software without using it first, There is alot of utter shit software floating around and I'm not shelling out my hard earned bucks for apps that are crap, or games that only hold my attention for a few weeks.

I'm also morally opposed to supporting any company which outsources its work to the 3rd world, which drastically reduces the number of companies I will pay for software.

[StoneChucker]

I cannot believe some of the last dozen or so posts. Can you read them again and be proud of what you've written? This a clear-cut case of a certain element of NZ mentality, that brings down the rest of NZ, or even humanity as a whole Just one thing, I never intended to refer to any one person here, I'm being general.

Ok, my HSV example was shit - I even agree there. The basic point of stealing something just because you can't/won't have it is the same... I bet you Joe Crook up in XYZ town steals HSV's because he thinks the world owe's him something, and because as he sees it as if the system has shafted him.

You are throwing facts at me that are irrelevant! (You does not mean anyone in specific, not Dover, not DM, not anyone, but everyone in general!). I agree with you (how many times must I say it?) that MS are a monopoly, that they shaft their end users, that they try and steal technology or theories and copyright it as their own and that they have most of the business world by the balls with regard to their options for platforms / software. I also don't like paying heaps of money for something that I could get free (if I had to make my life harder by trying to be trendy and rebellious by preaching alternative free solutions). If those solutions work so well, and do the job you require then that's great. It's just that I find it terribly hypocritical for the protesters of MS to still use the software they are protesting about, and think that stealing it is ok, and that it's another avenue for their protest.

Where does anyone get the idea that it's up to them to break the law, that it's ok to steal the software as a protest but then use it because they actually need / depend on it. Wouldn't a better protest be to stop using MS operating systems all together? I know that is not really a solution for large businesses because of the reasons you mentioned, but the funny thing is that businesses (mostly) pay for the software, partly because it's the law and partly because they know they need to use it for the successful operation of their business - they have ethics. So it's a little ironic that people like you (again, general) think it's up to them to tell MS by protest, how the businesses and public feel. By the way, to add to what I said earlier - I don't give a shit if MS loose profits, if they loose market share and even if they go bankrupt, MS was a specific company that someone else brought up. It has started to look like I'm saying "don't steal from MS, it's wrong"?? I'm NOT, if I was going to pirate something, it would be from them, for all the reasons you've all mentioned previously. However, even though a product is over priced, manufactured by an unethical company and often substandard, it's still a product that is for sale, and is being used in part because of it's superior features - Someone already said it - They wouldn't run open source alone. So, you want/need something that is for sale, but convince yourself it's ok to steal it for whatever reasons.

Lets forget MS, from the start, I was referring to pirated software in general. Whatever people use, whether it be a GUI for a open-source program or a completely separate copyrighted program, they are using it because they want/need it, and no amount of righeteous justification will ever make it ok.

ONE person got the point of what I started with, that being to at least admit that your lack of ethics regarding software piracy is not normal or acceptable, it is however a way of life now. I'm not slandering people who pirate software (that is not a double standard, it is an acceptance of modern society - I'd rather slightly contradict myself than be a dishonest hypocrite), just pointing out the facts. As I mentioned (and someone posted the same concept very recently on this thread), I (in past years) pirated everything on my computer, all the time. As mentioned, going back a few years, it was the normal thing to do, and especially being young with little money meant it was the only option. That ties in with what I'm saying, people do whatever they need to to provide what they need for themselves, or for others. To the person who mentioned a poor parent (or whatever) who couldn't afford $300 for an OS for their kids, read the last few lines, I agree with you I would (and used to) do just that, but I always knew what I was doing was wrong, and wished I didn't have to.

Hey I have a better example for the example connoisseurs amoung us
I live in an area where there is only one video shop. Because of that, they charge an extra few dollars for their movies. 15 or 20 minutes drive away I can get cheaper movies, but it's impractical to drive that far for a movie when one is available locally. Is it ok to steal from the video shop just because they are taking advantage of us using their unethical business practises? Or should I rather say bugger, I can't afford to hire movies as the illegal option isn't an option, for me anyway. (Oh, that is not relevant to me, I hire from the local video shop all the time and am happy to pay the price for the service/product I receive)

Life sucks, things are expensive and businesses try and rip you off. Taking short cuts, while sometime necessary, should at least register as being wrong in your thoughts and actions (my point). I get a little worried when 80% of society make their own rules, and stay morally content by using the easiest reasons available to justify it for themselves and others.

So no, I don't see your point, but I am amazed that people can't even admit that they see mine. It's not even like I'm saying stop doing it... I guess it's like AA - you can't start until you admit you are doing it.

[Drunken Monkey]

...This a clear-cut case of a certain element of NZ mentality,...

Right, because "software piracy" was invented by New Zealanders, for New Zealanders. In fact, the "Maarees" have exclusivity on the term and act of "software piracy". Software piracy can not, by definition, ever be carried out by non-New Zealanders...

Excuse my blatant and rather witless sarcasm but, your other points aside, that comment you made was complete and utter rubbish.

...Where does anyone get the idea that it's up to them to break the law, that it's ok to steal the software as a protest but then use it because they actually need / depend on it...

You know, that is a very good question. I think it's just sort of happened that way because of the medium (of digital data). In saying that, I must point out that so far the legal attempts at tidying up MS' dirty business practice have been, well, weak at the best of times. (yeah I know you're talking about all software developers, not just MS)

...Hey I have a better example for the example connoisseurs amoung us...

Erm, no. You still have practical alternatives, including pay-per-view, fatso.co.nz, things like that. Plus you'd be ripping off a small, probably owner operated franchise running low margins. It's a different kettle of fish, mate. Nice try though.

... should at least register as being wrong in your thoughts and actions (my point)...

Legally or morally/ethicially. Both? And from who's view? Questions to which sometimes there is also no clear cut right or wrong! I don't think anyone beleives they aren't breaking the law, but the law, as they say, is sometimes an ass.

[phaedrus]

This is a bit of a goat trap for me. The term is copyright infringement, not theft or piracy. It's still wrong but is covered by different laws.

Piracy is an emotive term used to sway the opinion of the masses and is used for it's instant negitave connotation.

Theft has been misappropriated using the term "intellectual property", as if you could be deprived of an idea by telling someone else.