Newbie don't like helmet

[Paul in NZ]

The ambulance can end up cleaning up the mess. If called out to take a failed home birther (au naturale leads to au naturale) into hospital to go under the big knife.

Put it this way - how many of you are here today because of helmets and how many of ya mates are in vege ga ga land or doing 10 k max in wheelchairs and no longer ride like the wind - because of helmets.

Oh for goodness sake.... Are you utterly mad? How many studies have there been? This BS about helments causing injuries is just selective mis information put about by bad arse wanna bees. OF COURSE in a few random accidents helmets have made the situation worse but in the vast majority the rider is many many times better off.

Aside from the logic, the fact is - it's the law - but luckily for you, this is still a democracy! If you feel so strongly about it, do something to change the law but don't make daft posts (well I guess thats just my opinion of course)

Yes - you are free, freer than a great many places but that does not mean you should act irresponsibly and become a burden for the rest of us to bear. Lord knows we have enough non productive units to support as it is...

[ManDownUnder]

Was scientificly proven (on news today) that cages dont bump you if no helmet. They steer clear. Long hair even better protection. The theory say that drivers assess women as erratic, so give more space to hair bears.

A helmet, it should be a choice. My head after all isn't it. Don't knock it.

Awesome - does that apply to trees, power poles, loose gravel, tarseal, fences parked cars, buildings and signs?

If so - I'm never wearing a helmet again!

[ManDownUnder]

Statistics are a wonderful resource for proving things....for example -
Stats prove that wearing a helmet on a motorcycle is no guarantee of protection, since the only motorcyclists who suffered injury were wearing a helmet at the time.
Get real!

I read that eating tomatoes is lethal. Everyone who eats them dies! (... eventually...)

[davereid]

Aside from the logic, the fact is - it's the law - but luckily for you, this is still a democracy! If you feel so strongly about it, do something to change the law but don't make daft posts (well I guess thats just my opinion of course)

Yes - you are free, freer than a great many places but that does not mean you should act irresponsibly and become a burden for the rest of us to bear. Lord knows we have enough non productive units to support as it is...


OK ... 1 Democracy...
We have a form of democracy thought of as "Tryanny by Democracy" by anyone who has taken more than a microsecond to consider it.

Thats because once elected the government have total power. Dont forget, this government won by 116 votes. If Otaki had gone Blue instead of Red (116 votes) we would have a different government.

2.. Democracy.. is shit..
[Freedom comes from the barrel of a gun].
Democracy means there are three of us. And you and your buddy vote that I will do all the work. I vote I won't. But guess what I lose. But its legit cos its democracy.

3.. You are a burden if you crash not wearing a helmet...
Easy. Dont Tax me for health, I'll be responsible for my own. But Don't tax me then ask me to get insurance as well.

4. Helmet laws are passed only to effect someone else anyway. Thats why you get to wear one on your bike (even though the evidence shows they are useless) but not in your car. (That would be crazy !)

5. Helmets are wank. Most head injuries are closed head.. ie they are caused by the brain rattling around the skull and dont even break the skin. Helmets only help at impacts between 5 and 7 m/s. Cos the head is able to protect itself up to 5 m/s. After 7 m/s the helmet doesn't help. On my bike I usually ride at 30 m/s. hmmm.

So stick your safety Nazi attitudes up you arse.

Only don't burden the health system by eating peanuts, cos thats kills or hospitalises thousands every year.

And if you get asthma, kill youself now, cos I don't want to pay for medication, ambulance treatment or hospitalisation.

[Aitch]

I suspect that if you're in a crash bad enough that your helmet causes your brain damage, then if you had a naked nut instead, your brains would be alllll over the road.

This reminds me of the pregnant ladies who don't wear a seatbelt "because in a crash it might hurt my baby". Lady, if the crash is severe enough that a seat belt across the abdomen will injure a baby who is well insulated in the womb, the same accident would almost certainly kill anyone not wearing a seatbelt. And then where would the baby be?????

[Aitch]

Aside from the logic, the fact is - it's the law - but luckily for you, this is still a democracy! If you feel so strongly about it, do something to change the law but don't make daft posts (well I guess thats just my opinion of course)

Yes - you are free, freer than a great many places but that does not mean you should act irresponsibly and become a burden for the rest of us to bear. Lord knows we have enough non productive units to support as it is...


OK ... 1 Democracy...
We have a form of democracy thought of as "Tryanny by Democracy" by anyone who has taken more than a microsecond to consider it.

Thats because once elected the government have total power. Dont forget, this government won by 116 votes. If Otaki had gone Blue instead of Red (116 votes) we would have a different government.

.

This is incorrect I'm afraid. The constituentsy vote pays no part in the final make up of the house. It's the PARTY vote that counts. Labour managed to cobble together a majority with the aid of minor parties. Between them the held a majority of the party votes.

[davereid]

Thats the whole point.. the current government claims a "mandate" to rule.. its lucky to "cobble together" a majority.

If helmets are so good why dont you wear one in your car.

After all, "Automobile accidents account for 45.5% of all head injured patients and are responsible for 37.1% of all fatalities involving head injury. (The American Journal of Trauma, 1989)"

So as cars get safer with air bags, speed sensors, follow to close sensors etc should we just ban motorcycles ?

You cant seem to understand its my head. not yours. ever.


(Oops, soory Aitch.. intended as a rave at the world.. not you in particular..)

[Aitch]

But it's everyone else's tax dollars that pay for your treatment when you fall off and crack your head open and suffer brain damage.
Sometimes you just have to accept that state enforced compulsion is necessary...like the compulsion to drive on the left.......

[Motu]

But if you crash without a helmet you die,surely....so why does that cost the tax payer?

[davereid]

Yep, tax payers get to pay for my head just like I get to pay for them drinking and falling over, playing rugby and choking on peanuts.

But Im WAY happy about the idea of dumping the health system. Don't tax me for it, don't give me access to it, I'll cheerfully arrange my own cover.

And by the way, the socialists have only a one seat majority, with all their part seats included.

If they had lost Otaki to Nathan Guy, they would be down one, the Nats would be up one, and we would have a different government.

And this kkeps on assuming that helmets make a significant difference. That REAL debatable.

Fact: There is no discernible difference in motorcycle accident or fatality rates between states with mandatory helmet laws and those which allow for freedom of choice. In fact, states which support voluntary use routinely achieve accident and fatality rates equal to or better than states with mandatory helmet laws for all riders. (American Motorcycle Association, 1995)


"It is concluded that: 1) motorcycle helmets have no significant effect on probability of fatality; and 2) past a critical impact speed, helmets increase the severity of neck injuries." (Dr. Jonathan Goldstein, Bowdoin College)


Fact: Helmets are minimally effective in preventing most injuries. (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration report to Congress, the CODES Study, 1995)

Fact: There are no appreciable differences found relative to fatality rate, severity of injury, hospital stay, and discharge status between motorcycle accident victims who wore helmets and those who did not. (Arizona's Governor's Office of Highway Safety Study, 1990)

At best helmets may be helpful, but its far from proven. At worst they break necks. Let me choose thank you.

[Paul in NZ]

Meh!

I've seen countless studies and guess what... Every one of them comes out in favour of the opinion of the guy that paid for them.

I could find a study claiming global warming is a myth next to ones that claim the opposite. What I'm going by is practical experience because when I started riding I didn't have to wear a helmet.

Is the helmet going to save your life? Not really, certainly no more than in the leather vs synth argument. Luck, speed and whether your body hits anything solid is probably more important but you can control that.

What I know is that when wearing a full face helmet on the open road I'm better protected, not just from crashing but from debris, the weather and any number of other things. It sure will save my good looks in a face plant though. My personal feeling is, if given the choice I'd rather be wearing one than not. End of story.

Now - the democracy thing. Democracy does not, nor has it ever meant that you are entitled to do as you please. What it does mean, is that you have the right to have your say and to influence the laws of the land. If you passionately believe that you are right, you can petition parilament and can change the law, provided you can influence enough other people to sign your petition or what ever.

Where we do agree is on the health system. It's not a good idea to run private and a public system IMHO as it's too easy for both to push difficult cases off on each other and no one is the winner. However, what would you propose? Assume you have an accident? Who will treat you if you cannot identify yourself and your insurer? What if you suffer a long term (and expensive) injury that will require years of treatment? I think you would find your private provider would have several out clauses. yes we will cover you but you must act responsibly and btw - we don't think riding motorcycles is responsible and if you insist we will not insure you or charge you more - a lot more.

There is no perfect system. We have a very acceptable system and a lot of very clever people have decided I'm better off wearing a helmet and I'm more than happy with it.

You might want to consider this....

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/fe...lmet_6-19.html

Good stats here

http://www.birf.info/prevent/prev-ar...or-helmet.html

Oh yeah! Repeal the helmet law and it makes no difference eh?

http://jacksonville.injuryboard.com/...met-debate.php

David, I've sat on the road holding a mate with his face seemingly ground off, resigned to watching him die off because we were too damn cool to wear helmets. I couldn't even see a full set of lips to give him cpr and he was gurgling plenty. The ambulance guy saved his arse by whacking a tube in him while I was throwing up. He does not ride anymore and a few years after the accident he told me he wishes he had died because the pain of the reconstruction was killing him. 35 years on, he looks almost normal but hes still bitter. Shit like that changes you - I wear a helmet, I'm careful and I don't like group rides much 'cos i don't ever want to see that again. No I don't talk about it because it still scares me.

You choose what you want but I know what I saw...

Paul N

ps - if helmets are so bad.... How come every bike racer and every race car driver seems to wear them?

[onearmedbandit]

I always wear a helmet on my bike, not because I have to but because I want to. If I hadn't been wearing one on Tuesday it would be my wife posting this message saying she wished I had worn one.

[davereid]

For every link that can be produced saying helmets are "proved" lifesavers, the is another "proving" they are not. Thats because the evidence is flaky.

Even the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, charged with proving helmets were required to avoid repeal of helmet laws, had to conclude "Helmets are minimally effective in preventing most injuries." (Report to Congress, the CODES Study, 1995)

One of your links was from a US footy player - where they wear helmets. Should we extend that to law ?

What about kids walking to school - Japan has already experimented with that ?

What about the most likely place to get a head injury - the motor car ! You are quick to point out that car racers wear helmets, why not just make it compulsory ?

The reason ? You tell me.

But I think its easy.

Democracy makes it easy to pass laws that only effect minorities. So make cyclists and motorcyclist wear helmets.

But, even though ALL the arguments that were used to justify the law applied equally to car drivers, and still do, it was never applied to cars.

So when you accept laws like helmet laws, you pave the way for the next set of "motorcycle only" laws.

They have already set capacity limits for learner riders, but rejected it for learner drivers. We pay higher ACC levies too, in a no fault system.

Watch motorcycle HP limits, power to weight limits etc arrive.

Already some US states have tried to regulate handlebar heights - as a defacto way of eliminating sport bikes.

So, wear your helmet if you want, encourage others to wear them too, but defend the right of others to choose.

Or watch the bastards ban your bike - after all it can't have seat belts, air bags or anti-rollover technology.

I can hear the politicians now... Best for all if the damn dangerous things just cop an increase in the ACC every year until no one can afford to ride em. (Your kids will thank us.)

[Paul in NZ]

For every link that can be produced saying helmets are "proved" lifesavers, the is another "proving" they are not. Thats because the evidence is flaky.

um yeah - isn't that what I said but you didn't provide any examples??

Watch motorcycle HP limits, power to weight limits etc arrive.

Already some US states have tried to regulate handlebar heights - as a defacto way of eliminating sport bikes.

So, wear your helmet if you want, encourage others to wear them too, but defend the right of others to choose.

Or watch the bastards ban your bike - after all it can't have seat belts, air bags or anti-rollover technology.

I can hear the politicians now... Best for all if the damn dangerous things just cop an increase in the ACC every year until no one can afford to ride em. (Your kids will thank us.)

Honestly, spare me the speaches. I've lived the life and done the whole outlaw thing in the 70's, dropped out turned on and run my chop through the mean streets with hair flowing free and my old lady on the back. Live to ride ride to live.... Yeah right!! Got the scars and the faded photos and been to a lot of funerals. I've met the guys that run Easyriders and it is not what you think it is, they don't need to wear helmets 'cos their $5,000 hair doos are tougher than shoeis best. I've ridden across the moors of england and seen highway 66. I know what I've seen and I know the fastest way to get bikes banned is extremist idiots. Be they hemetless morons with apehangers or 300kph road stains in full leathers....

I've buried more mates through motorcycle accidents than I have blood family..... and I'm not swayed by your ramblings because I've seen the results. Helmets save lives and help stop some horrific injuries.

You want to ride free? Go kill yourself now and drift off into a david mann picture. You wanna ride a lifetime? Wear a good helmet and some decent kit and play the survival game. Don't try and suck other people into your 'freedom' dream because it's as utter crap as Bob Jones New Zealand first! Give it up. Helmets are here to stay in NZ, fight the fights you can win...

Paul N

Last post here from me - too many ghosts and it's why I left KB a while back - I need my sleep.;

[davereid]

QUOTE um yeah - isn't that what I said but you didn't provide any examples??

Yes I did - the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, who concluded "Helmets are minimally effective in preventing most injuries."


QUOTEGot the scars...I've buried more mates through motorcycle accidents than I have blood family.....

The rest of your message appears to be a list of reasons for the socialists to ban motorcycles.

QUOTE spare me the speaches. I've lived the life...

My message was not intended to be a personal attack on you.

Don't assume the arrogance of old age, and don't assume that you have been on two wheels for longer than me.

QUOTE I'm not swayed by your ramblings

I don't mind. Because I'm not trying to make my opinion mandatory. I'm happy for individuals to make their own decisions, and accept the consequences for them.

Socialists are so sure of their opinions that they are happy to force them on everyone else. Thats why cops will cheerfully chase helmetless cyclists or speeding drivers to their death.

For me, I'll let people make their own decisions, and yes, I'll keep on adding duct tape, RTV and matt black paint to my 1970 black full face helmet. And on back country roads, it will sit in my pack, where its only cost me one no helmet ticket in 30 years and 300,000 km. And I'll smile, listen to all the sounds, feel the air and enjoy MY life.

QUOTE Be they helmetless morons,

If this has become a personal thing just let me know !